The (un)democratic nomination

As a non-American, this is the first time that I have really paid any attention to the nomination process. And I was wondering … what’s with these “superdelegates”?

Democracy is built (amongst other things) on the idea that everyone is equal and everyone’s vote countsfor the same. So then why risk overturning the nomination a popularly elected candidate at the whim of 800 normal (i.e. not-so-super) people?

Doesn’t make sense to me… could someone please explain if there is any logic in this?

P.s. If Hillary is elected by the vote of the superdelegates, a lot of people are going to be pissed!

If the Democrats had a winner takes all nomination process like the Republicans, Hillary would already be the nominee.

salon.com/opinion/feature/20 … ndex1.html

[quote=“Chewycorns”]If the Democrats had a winner takes all nomination process like the Republicans, Hillary would already be the nominee.
[/quote]

Conversely if the Republicans didn’t have the winner-takes-all system, Mitt Romney would have had almost the same number of seats as Mc Cain when he dropped out (they would have both been in the 400s) and would probably have been in the race a lot longer…

Only a pure democracy is one person one vote.

[quote=“teggs”]So then why risk overturning the nomination a popularly elected candidate at the whim of 800 normal (i.e. not-so-super) people?

Doesn’t make sense to me… could someone please explain if there is any logic in this?[/quote]

The Dems always thing a certain class of people know what is best for the rest of us. Thus, they have a class of delegates who they feel are more knowledgable of and more invested in the process, and thus the Dems give those folks additional voting power.

Not the Republicans.

:wink:

Exactly! From what I’ve heard from a (dem) mate of mine, a lot of Obama supporters would rather vote for Mc Cain than Hillary.

The genius of American democracy is we pretend to vote, they pretend to represent us, and we all pretend it’s a democracy.

Every once in a while the fact that it’s really a circle jerk breaks through the facade and we all just look the other way until it passes.

And we allow everyone to have their say.

No matter what they want to say or how silly it might seem to others.

(except that “Fire!” in a crowded theater thing)

Oh…and by the way…The USA is a ‘Representative Republic’…not a democracy.

Right, but nobody is quite sure what “representative republic” means. That’s why Americans have to be constantly reminded that our nation “isn’t exactly a democracy” when we start carrying on about being a democracy.

A good rule of thumb is that “representative republic” is a euphemism for circle jerk on a national scale.

By definition, that’s a rich joke coming from a republican.

First of all, the Republicans do not have a winner-take-all system, they have a mixed system.

Out of the 2380 delegates in total, only about a third come from states/territories with winner-take-all provisions.

According to my quick (and probably slightly off) math, 1610 delegates are selected from jurisdictions with proportional representation.

The problem for Romney was that the winner-take-all states were front-loaded, i.e. even if he had a majority in the proportional states and a majority over all, the WTA states would still have locked it up for McCain.

Take a look at the Wiki entry on Republican Presidential primaries, and check out the selection methods for each state. Just like the Dems, it’s a mish-mash of primaries, caucases, mixed-type, beauty contests, WTA, PR, open , closed, weighted voting…

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican … ted_States
Republican Party (United States) presidential primaries, 2008 -

“Presidential primaries” are best thought of as six month long games of Three Card Monte in which the populace is made to believe it has actually selected the two Americans most qualified to be leader of the free world – rather than what they really are – two preselected hacks whose true purpose is to serve as malleable frontmen for insider special interests.

It was touching when everyone showed their ink-stained fingers.
Or was that somewhere else.

[quote=“TainanCowboy”]And we allow everyone to have their say.

No matter what they want to say or how silly it might seem to others.

(except that “Fire!” in a crowded theater thing)

Oh…and by the way…The USA is a ‘Representative Republic’…not a democracy.[/quote]

It is a democracy, since a representative republic is a form of democracy. What the US isn’t is a pure democracy.

If the US weren’t a democracy, why would we be advocating the spread of democracy in the world?

[quote=“spook”]Right, but nobody is quite sure what “representative republic” means. That’s why Americans have to be constantly reminded that our nation “isn’t exactly a democracy” when we start carrying on about being a democracy.
A good rule of thumb is that “representative republic” is a euphemism for circle jerk on a national scale.[/quote]Spook -
Perhaps you were pivot-man when the definition was being discussed. Your ‘circle-jerk’ allusion would be more correctly applied to ‘democracy’ which can accurately be described as a tyranny of the masses.

REPRESENTATIVE REPUBLIC

Republic Rules - The U.S.A. is a great representative republic.

Benjamin Franklin (1706–90)
QUOTATION: "Well, Doctor, what have we got—a Republic or a Monarchy?”
“A Republic, if you can keep it.”

ATTRIBUTION: The response is attributed to BENJAMIN FRANKLIN—at the close of the Constitutional Convention of 1787, when queried as he left Independence Hall on the final day of deliberation—in the notes of Dr. James McHenry, one of Maryland’s delegates to the Convention.

McHenry’s notes were first published in The American Historical Review, vol. 11, 1906, and the anecdote on p. 618 reads: “A lady asked Dr. Franklin Well Doctor what have we got a republic or a monarchy. A republic replied the Doctor if you can keep it.” When McHenry’s notes were included in The Records of the Federal Convention of 1787, ed. Max Farrand, vol. 3, appendix A, p. 85 (1911, reprinted 1934), a footnote stated that the date this anecdote was written is uncertain.
bartleby.com/73/1593.html

Its what was taught to me.

Maybe we can all at least disagree to be unconfused as to what our country’s system of government really is. This much I can guarantee though; if Obama goes down it will be precisely because he’s the least hackneyed of the three “choices.”

For a very long time I’ve had a vague understanding that the predominance of presidential primaries in the nomination process was a fairly recent thing. I think my understanding came mostly from the glimpses I got at age fourteen of the TV coverage of the Democratic National Convention of 1968, and from occasionally seeing something in the papers in later years, until around 1976, about changes taking place in the Democratic Party’s nominating process. Just now Wikipedia added a little specificity to my thinking. Here’s what it says, among other things, about the history of U.S. presidential primaries (I added the bracketed words in the quote):

The phrase I recall hearing numerous times in childhood and young adulthood was “smoke-filled room.” That is, in the old days not many people seemed to mind very much if a few representatives of various interests nominated the candidate in secret discussions. So compared to what went on a few decades ago, today’s nomination process seems democratic.

In the movie The Verdict, one of the characters says that the legal system doesn’t really give people justice; it merely gives them a shot at justice. Similarly, I would say that the electoral system (including the primary system) doesn’t give us self-government, but it gives us a shot at self-government.

But it’s difficult to keep up with everything, people are busy, they get discouraged, so they at least partially opt out, so to speak, and let others handle it.

I think William Butler Yeats describes this attitude pretty well:

[quote]A statesman is an easy man,
He tells his lies by rote;
A journalist makes up his lies
And takes you by the throat;
So stay at home and drink your beer
And let the neighbours vote. . . .[/quote]–“The Old Stone Cross”

But the problem isn’t limited to voting. I think that in order for a democratic system to be fully effective, a lot more people would have to participate than usually do, and the participation would have to be a lot more thorough and vigorous than it usually is. But people (myself included) don’t want to be inconvenienced by it. As Pogo said, “We have met the enemy, and he is us.”

The Dems superdelegates policy was installed after the McGovern nomination to ensure that the party elders would act as a firebreak against any wild-eyed insurgency from the unwashed.

The moving of the South Carolina primary to come directly after Iowa and New Hampshire was motivated by the the same feeling among the Republicans, southern GOPers being assumed to be more easily…um…guided (herded was actually the word I was thinking of).

TC, love to hear your definition of the difference between a democracy and a “representative republic”, other than poor people and women can’t vote, and blacks count for 3/5ths of a voter without being allowed to do 3/5ths of the voting.

This is highly enjoyable. You guys are always such fun.

Carry on. :smiley: