The United States Has Attacked ISIS

I’m not sure about that. Iran was and is openly committed to the destruction of Israel and has long attempted to sabotage any peace settlement, because the continuation of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is necessary for Iran’s struggle against the Sunni Arab states for leadership of the Muslim world. Iran was pursuing a coordinated soft-power strategy throughout its sphere of influence, using political, economic, and military tools to promote its agenda, and in that regard, Iran meddled in Syria and nurtured Hezbollah, through Syria, in Lebanon.

[/quote]
you are seriously making shit up and pulling it out of your ass. in fact, you’ve just made my point even stronger, ie state of affaris before the coup detat and after
here of course i also blame Britain, but theyve always been wankers in my book.

It is absurd to think that Iran is any worse than China, yet we have happily worked to empower the latter these past 20 years. A mistake mind you, but the notion that we have to treat Iran as a pariah is just not borne out by comparison to how we treat other crazy countries.

Yeah… that is probably the usual left-wing mindless message. Meanwhile on Planet Reality…

[quote]The Myth of an American Coup
What really happened in Iran in 1953\

This year marks the sixtieth anniversary of Operation Ajax—the notorious CIA plot that is supposed to have ousted Iranian prime minister Muhammad Mossadeq. In the intervening decades, the events of 1953 have been routinely depicted as a nefarious U.S. conspiracy that overthrew a nationalist politician who enjoyed enormous popular support. This narrative, assiduously cultivated by the Islamic Republic, was so readily endorsed by the American intellectual class that presidents and secretaries of state are now expected to commence any discussion of Iran by apologizing for the behavior of their malevolent predecessors. At this stage, the account has even seeped into American popular culture, featuring most recently in Ben Affleck’s Oscar-winning blockbuster Argo.
The only problem with this mythologized history is that the CIA’s role in Mossadeq’s demise was largely inconsequential. In the end, the 1953 coup was very much an Iranian affair.

Muhammad Mossadeq was an aristocratic politician who belonged to a narrow Iranian elite who considered high government office their patrimony. Respectful of the traditions of its class, this cohort would constitute the cabinets, parliaments, and civil service that ruled Iran for much of the 20th century. Mossadeq and his political party, the National Front, reached the height of their influence in 1950 when they pressed a nationalization law through the parliament, allowing Iran to reclaim its oil from British imperial control. Despite the standard account of American hostility to Iranian nationalism, both the Truman and Eisenhower administrations recognized the shortcomings of British strategy in the age of postcolonial nationalism and pressured London to accept Iran’s legitimate demands. American diplomats like Dean Acheson and Averell Harriman pressed both sides toward accommodation and compromise. For three years, the United States crafted innumerable proposals that sought to reconcile British mandates with Iranian nationalist imperatives. As with today’s nuclear diplomacy regarding Iran, all these clever formulations failed to yield an agreement.

One key problem was that Mossadeq became a victim of his own success. The prime minister’s absolutist rhetoric and pledges to end British influence created conditions that militated against a judicious resolution of the crisis. The more he galvanized his countrymen and inflamed public opinion the less likely he was to settle for a compromise accord. As the diplomatic stalemate persisted, Iran was deprived of indispensable revenue when Britain embargoed its oil shipments.
By 1953, Iran’s economy was in free-fall.
Without its oil wealth and facing mounting budget deficits, the Mossadeq government was increasingly incapable of meeting its payroll. Iran could not get around the British embargo, and efforts to operate an oil-less economy proved doomed as the government relied on petroleum sales to cover much of its budget. Mossadeq responded to the crisis by behaving in an increasingly autocratic manner. A principled politician who revered the rule of law, Mossadeq now contrived referendums, rigged elections, and sought control of the armed forces, long a prerogative of the Iranian monarchy. Suddenly the champion of constitutional rule turned into a populist rabble-rouser rebelling against the traditions of his state.

Iran’s escalating economic crisis began to fracture the National Front, less a party than a coalition of like-minded organizations. The fact that it accordingly never developed its own dedicated and disciplined cadre that could remain steadfast under political stress was part of what undid Mossadeq. The Front’s middle-class elements, concerned about their declining financial fortunes, began to abandon him. The intelligentsia and the professional class were increasingly wary of the prime minister’s autocratic tendencies and looked for alternative leadership. The armed forces, which had stayed quiet despite Mossadeq’s periodic purges of the senior officer corps, now grew vocal and began to participate in political intrigues. The clerisy, long suspicious of secular politicians and their modernizing tendency, subtly shifted its allegiances to the monarchy.
And here it is worth underscoring the fact that the clerical estate—despite the Islamic Republic’s current position on the so-called CIA coup—played a critical role in Mossadeq’s downfall.
The prospect of toppling Mossadeq was promoted by a coterie of Iranian politicians who saw that, given Mossadeq’s dictatorial penchant, there was no legislative means of removing him from power. General Fazollah Zahedi, a onetime member of Mossadeq’s cabinet turned oppositionist, offered himself to the U.S. embassy as a possible solution. As a member of the armed forces with ties to the clerical establishment, Zahedi assured the embassy that a robust anti-Mossadeq network already existed and could discharge its functions with minimal support from the United States.

By May 1953, a joint CIA-MI6 task force proposed a plan of action, codenamed “Ajax.” The key to the plot was to gain the cooperation of the shah, who had the legal authority to dismiss his premier. Zahedi emerged as the cornerstone of the plan, for he was seen, according to the CIA’s account, as the only figure with sufficient “vigor and courage to make him worthy of support.” Eisenhower approved the plan in a meeting with his top national security advisers on June 22. By that point the erosion of Mossadeq’s support was all too obvious. A large portion of the National Front had abandoned Mossadeq while the military’s top brass was agitating for action. All the signals coming out of Tehran were that the shah was still a popular figure, and if he intervened decisively, Mossadeq would have to yield. As with most well-laid plans, the actual course of events did not conform to the plotters’ expectations.

The first phase of the CIA’s operation was to inflame the existing disorder with a propaganda campaign, turning out stories about Mossadeq’s corruption, hunger for power, and Jewish ancestry, the last of which, at least, was a fabrication. Other newspaper reports cited forged documents suggesting that the National Front was secretly collaborating with Iran’s Communist party, Tudeh, to establish a “people’s democracy” that would expunge religion from public life.

The recruitment of the shah proved a much more difficult task. The monarch seemed to welcome Mossadeq’s demise but was reluctant to assume direct responsibility for his dismissal. To stiffen his spine, the CIA arranged for a series of emissaries—including the shah’s twin sister, Princess Ashraf, as well as General Norman Schwarzkopf Sr., who trained the Iranian police force in the 1940s—to visit the palace. Another furtive guest of the court was the operational leader of the coup, Kermit Roosevelt. The shah wanted to gauge the degree of American commitment, and once assured of Eisenhower’s personal pledge to assist his country, he issued two orders—one dismissing Mossadeq and the other appointing Zahedi to the premiership.

On the night of August 16, Colonel Nematollah Nassiri, the commander of the Imperial Guards, attempted to deliver the orders to the prime minister’s residence. He failed. It appears that Mossadeq was tipped off by members of the Tudeh who had penetrated the armed forces. Nassiri and his troops were overwhelmed and quickly arrested by forces loyal to Mossadeq. Fearing for his safety, Zahedi went into hiding. The shah fled, first to Iraq and then Italy.
It’s important to note that for all the talk of a coup, the reality is that it was Mossadeq who broke the law. The shah had the constitutional authority to dismiss his prime minister—refusing to step down in contravention of the monarch’s orders was an illegal act.
After the plotters’ apparent failure, a mood of resignation descended over Washington. CIA headquarters acknowledged that the “operation had been tried and failed.” Eisenhower’s aide and confidant General Walter Bedell Smith told the president that “we now have to take a whole new look at the Iranian situation and probably have to snuggle up to Mossadeq if we are going to save anything there.” As the Americans despaired, the initiative passed to the Iranians.

In Tehran, political fortunes swayed back and forth. A number of National Front members denounced the monarchy and castigated the shah as a bloodthirsty tyrant. They were joined by the Tudeh, which saw a unique opportunity to flex its muscles and depose the shah. The party’s cadre toppled statues of Pahlavi kings and called for the establishment of a democratic republic. The U.S. ambassador to Iran, Loy Henderson, cabled Washington that the masses were outraged at the Tudeh’s “gang of hooligans bearing red flags and chanting Commie songs.” This assessment was later corroborated by a prominent Tudeh member, who acknowledged that their actions had backfired, leading to “quarrelling with shopkeepers, ordinary folks and clerics, affronting, even alienating them from the government of Dr. Mossadeq.”

Zahedi and his co-conspirators renewed their efforts, largely independent of Roosevelt and the CIA. Zahedi took two initiatives. He sought first to publicize the fact that the shah had dismissed Mossadeq and appointed him prime minister, and therefore Mossadeq’s claim to power was unconstitutional. Next, Zahedi contacted commanders of armed units in the capital and provinces that remained loyal to the shah and told them to prepare to mobilize their forces.

In late summer, military units began to clash with Tudeh activists, while pro-shah protesters took to the streets. It is true that the CIA paid a number of toughs from the bazaar and athletic centers to agitate against the government, but the CIA-financed mobs rarely exceeded a few hundred people in a country that was now rocked by demonstrators numbering in the thousands. As Henderson cabled from Tehran, the protesters were “not of hoodlum type customarily predominant in recent demonstrations in Tehran. They seemed to come from all classes of people, including workers, clerks, shopkeepers, students.” In the end, the CIA-organized demonstrations were overtaken by a spontaneous cascade of pro-shah protesters.

In a sense, Mossadeq expedited his own demise. Determined to restore order, the premier ordered the military to put an end to the disturbances—a military whose loyalty was suspect. Armed units took over key installations and eventually moved against Mossadeq, forcing him to flee. A startled CIA reported to the White House that “an unexpectedly strong surge of popular and military reaction to Prime Minister Mossadeq’s government has resulted, according to the latest dispatches from Tehran, in the virtual occupation of the city by forces professing their loyalty to the Shah and to his appointed Prime Minister Zahedi.” Mossadeq was too much a man of the system to remain on the run. He turned himself in to General Zahedi’s headquarters, where he was treated with courtesy and respect. Before the advent of the Islamic Republic, Persian politics were still marked by civility and decorum.

The coup that would be subject to so much historical controversy was not so much an American conspiracy as a reassertion of Iran’s traditional classes alarmed about the radicalization of national politics.
The street that Mossadeq had relied on rebelled against him. Many chroniclers of these events refuse to acknowledge that the shah was at the time a popular figure and the monarchy a trusted institution. Army officers, landowners, mullahs, and average citizens alike had confidence in the monarchy and were fearful that its absence would pave the way for the dreaded Communists.

In the ensuing decades, Kermit Roosevelt and other CIA alumni would embellish their role in toppling Mossadeq, but the U.S. government’s after-action assessment was much more modest. The CIA itself noted that it was the shah’s departure that turned the tide against Mossadeq. “The flight of the Shah brought home to the populace in a dramatic way how far Mossadeq had gone and galvanized the people into irate pro-Shah force,” a CIA cable read. Similarly, the U.S. embassy reported that “not only members of Mossadeq regime but also pro-Shah supporters were amazed at latter’s comparatively speedy and easy initial victory which was achieved with high degree of spontaneity.” Eisenhower, who as supreme commander of Allied forces during World War II knew something about covert operations, dismissed Roosevelt’s narrative as “more like a dime store novel than historical fact.”

It is often suggested that the events of 1953 made the 1979 Islamic Revolution inevitable. This is another mythological narrative with little relationship to the facts. The shah, returning from exile, had the support of the public, the endorsement of Iran’s important social classes, and the validation of a superpower benefactor. While continuing his drive to modernize Iran, he could have assembled an inclusive government and thereby built a resilient state capable of withstanding the revolutionary tremors of the 1970s. Instead, he opted for the path of autocracy and corruption that proved his undoing.
Neither the Truman nor the Eisenhower administration should be blamed for not foreseeing, much less preventing, the shah’s subsequent misfortunes. Nor should current American policymakers continue to operate under the illusion, as flattering as it might be to their vanity, that the United States singlehandedly toppled an Iranian leader. Mossadeq’s fall was largely a matter between Iranians.
Ray Takeyh is a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations.[/quote]

Oh should I be surprised that Fred would creep over here at the first mention of Iran-US relations and be the staunch defender? how predictable. and the blocks of text with bolded words? At least it’s not in Bright Red and Blue!

oh you mean the CIA engineered the downfall of Mossadeq for the good of the Iranian people and not part of some Cold-War plan. how enlightening? And to be clear, are you also challenging me on the Israel-Iran facts on what Tigerman alleged? or are you going to concede that? so really, what was the primary motive for both CIA and MI6 to lend “a hand” shall we say to the Shah? goodness of their hearts?

even if I agree with some of the arguments you’ve presented ie that the revolution was not inevitable because of the coup, there can be no doubt that the coup radicalised politics. In that, the revolution and its violence had a dangerous precedent set and given to them by Anglo-Americans. Who knows? maybe it could all have been changed democratically, but we will never know, will we?

Well, gee, let’s think about that… China funds and supports and arms just how many terrorist/militant groups?

Iran, on the other hand, for all the hand-wringing about a supposed U.S. supported coup in 1953 (that is 60 years ago!!!) funds, supports and actively seeks to interfere in the relations of and to topple regimes in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Gaza, West Bank, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, and Afghanistan.

Again, you are wrong. Iran is a pariah because it repeatedly undermines international norms and law. And for all the pants-wetting over the supposed U.S. flouting of international law with regard to Guantanamo and the Iraq invasion/war, Iran is BY FAR in a league of its own. The fact that you cannot or will not see this merely underscores your selective moral outrage and posturing. But we have seen that all before most notablly with regard to your stance on Guantanamo and extrajudicial killings… non?

Nor should I be surprised that you have let your emotional bed-wetting hysteria predict your prancing predilection for prattle and posture?

Interesting… seems that you did not read one word of the article.

READ THE ARTICLE. This is always the problem discussing anything with you… hysterics… I know that you have a short attention span and like to get excited in preparation for your latest salvo on OUTRAGE!!! but IF you READ the article, you will find out that the point is that our involvement was completely immaterial to what happened AS USUAL… The same is true of Chile and Pinochet in 1973. People CONSTANTLY get these issues muddled. It is funny though that they attribute all manner of Machiavellian mastery to the US in matters like the overthrow of Allende in Chile and Mossadeq in Iran while bewailing our incompetence to manage affairs in Iraq, Afghanistan or elsewhere…

FOR GOD’s SAKE, READ READ READ the article. What are you on about?

The good thing about Assange and Wikileaks is THIS: So many secret cables and files have been released… and guess what? There is NO there THERE. THAT is what is so amazingly funny about this whole release of SECRET SECRET SECRET information. It reveals the US and its activities to be remarkably benign and even BORING. So much for the CIA controlling the world in conjunction with the Zionist Jewish cabal and the Illuminati…

er I don’t think you read the article yourself (which is debatable that we can take it at face value). That said, your article suggests that oil nationalisation was the key to why Anglo-Americans pushed for the coup. The “In the end” bit is a big mess of a writing.

REASON ONE (WHY MI6): [quote]Mossadegh had sought to audit the books of the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company (AIOC), a British corporation (now BP) and to renegotiate the terms of the company’s access to Iranian oil reserves. Upon refusal of the AIOC to cooperate with the Iranian government, the parliament (Majlis) voted to nationalize the assets of the company and expel their representatives from the country.[/quote]

REASON TWO (WHY CIA):[quote] Because of the failure of oil negotiations with Iran, along with a number of other issues, the United States was concerned “that Iran was in real danger of falling behind the Iron Curtain.”[/quote]

WHY THE BRITS AND BP ARE WANKERS: [quote]Mohammad Mosaddegh attempted to negotiate with the AIOC, but the company rejected his proposed compromise. Mosaddegh’s plan, based on the 1948 compromise between the Venezuelan Government of Romulo Gallegos and Creole Petroleum, would divide the profits from oil 50/50 between Iran and Britain. Against the recommendation of the United States, Britain refused this proposal and began planning to undermine and overthrow the Iranian government[/quote]

HOW THE BRITS FLAUNT INTERNATIONAL LAW

edition.cnn.com/2013/08/19/polit … ?hpt=po_c2

Nevermind that Zahedi was once pro-Nazi. hey any price to fight to Soviets, right?

SO FFS, YOU READ THE ARTICLE!

A lot of the pariah-making at this point seems more based on historical momentum (the continuation of past practices) than on practical needs. Why do we (the US) still have so many policies against Cuba? It’s no model of governance, but they are far less hostile to us than, say, Venezuela or North Korea.

Helms-Bacardi, there are (among other things) ongoing financial reasons.

ratb.org.uk/campaigns/boycot … alist-cuba

  1. I thought you were talking about toppling Saddam. My bad. I was reading quite fast and trying to get out the door.

  2. Nothing I posted above is false regarding modern Iraq.

Aside from the fact that he appears to be suffering from long term memory loss John McCain makes an interesting, though clearly unintended, point about Fortress America:

[quote]John McCain Twitter feed @SenJohnMcCain

Landed in #Hanoi, where people always greet me in the most incredibly friendly manner #Vietnam
12:49 AM - 8 Aug 2014[/quote]
Point being that a mere forty years ago Vietnam was the global epicenter of evil incarnate and today is BFF central for a former adversay and the only thing that changed was that America holstered its messiah complex and went home. Maybe there’s a lesson there for America’s current crop of jihadists about the best long term way to save the world from itself.

The author notes that the US and UK governments were “involved” in discussions regarding the removal of Mossadegh for the very reasons that you have cited… BUT, according to the author, was USG and UKG involvement the key factor? NO. Did both have their reasons for wanting a change in government? YES. But ultimately, by the time that both got involved, the Iranian people INCLUDING THE IRANIAN clergy were very much AGAINST Mossadegh who, himself, was GUILTY of breaking the law. The shah had the power and authority to remove him. So, your take on this whole article backed by released classified information is that the USG and UKG are still ultimately responsible for the coup that toppled Mossadegh!!! And, you have a problem with the British government fighting the nationalization of the oil/gas interests of one of its major companies? Too much liberation theology and power-to-the people classes during your sophomore year of college? You did graduate, didn’t you? And how am I a bald-faced liar? You clearly skimmed through the article, failing to use the most basic of critical reading skills to arrive at some barely analyzed understanding of the article in complete defiance of the author’s intent to fit your own uninformed, uneducated, unenlightened Weltanschauung? Sigh… the millennial and the Zeitgeist that spawned him is to be bewailed… the future of “informed” opinion in the West… truly the decline and decadence have arrived. More bread; more circuses… be sure and catch the Real Housewives of New York tonight! I hear that they are going to be having a serious and intense discussion of U.S. foreign policy!!!

Or rather the point is that Vietnam was Communist and had designs on the rest of Indochina. The governments of Indonesia, Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore credit U.S. involvement with giving them the needed time to fight off Communist insurgencies of their own. AND today, the Vietnamese are moving toward capitalism even though officially communist. Are you suggesting that, perhaps, it is the Vietnamese Communist Front that has holstered its “save-the-world” complex to finally come to terms with Reality? So, ultimately, while we are now friends, is it because the US changed or Vietnam?

[quote=“fred smith”]…Well, gee, let’s think about that… China funds and supports and arms just how many terrorist/militant groups?

Iran, on the other hand, for all the hand-wringing about a supposed U.S. supported coup in 1953 (that is 60 years ago!!!) funds, supports and actively seeks to interfere in the relations of and to topple regimes in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Gaza, West Bank, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, and Afghanistan.

Again, you are wrong. Iran is a pariah because it repeatedly undermines international norms and law. [/quote]

An entire post without any extra upper case letters. Well done.

China flouts international norms at every step. Only a ignoramus would claim otherwise. Since the mid-2000s China had made it clear it was pushing for its own values to become counters to international legal norms. An easy example includes territorial claims based on the extent of Imperial era dominance. No regard is given to the modern maritime boundaries of SE Asian nations.

Hu JIntao has praised “the Castro and Kim regimes in Cuba and North Korea for effectively preserving the purity of Communist ideals.”

China keeps nuclear North Korea propped up, and has blocked Security Council vetoes on NK. It kept Burma afloat. Along with Russia, China vetoed a UN Security Council Resolution which has blocked Syria from facing the International Criminal Court. China has supplied military equipment to Syria, Iraq and Iran.

China threatens the US with its belligerence towards Japan and the Philippines, both protected by US defense treaties. It also threatens Taiwan. China is the most powerful military in the region and is building asymmetric systems specifically to undermine the superior US military strength.

in 2013, the Pentagon claimed 90% of cyberattacks on US government and defense computers originate in China.

But hey, what is this compared to the vastness of Iranian power.

For the record, I am not claiming Iran is pacific. I am claiming that we deal with far more belligerent nations all the time. Iran is not special.

Totally. The only norm China doesn’t flout is that China flouts norms.

is its constitutional promise of the right to freedom of speech, which the police, prosecutors, courts, and media authorities tend to ignore. Or the other 100s of ways the government disregards rule of law and human rights conventions within its own borders. Then there’s the international stuff.

Agree.

The author notes that the US and UK governments were “involved” in discussions regarding the removal of Mossadegh for the very reasons that you have cited… BUT, according to the author, was USG and UKG involvement the key factor? NO. Did both have their reasons for wanting a change in government? YES. But ultimately, by the time that both got involved, the Iranian people INCLUDING THE IRANIAN clergy were very much AGAINST Mossadegh who, himself, was GUILTY of breaking the law. The shah had the power and authority to remove him. So, your take on this whole article backed by released classified information is that the USG and UKG are still ultimately responsible for the coup that toppled Mossadegh!!! And, you have a problem with the British government fighting the nationalization of the oil/gas interests of one of its major companies? Too much liberation theology and power-to-the people classes during your sophomore year of college? You did graduate, didn’t you? And how am I a bald-faced liar? You clearly skimmed through the article, failing to use the most basic of critical reading skills to arrive at some barely analyzed understanding of the article in complete defiance of the author’s intent to fit your own uninformed, uneducated, unenlightened Weltanschauung? Sigh… the millennial and the Zeitgeist that spawned him is to be bewailed… the future of “informed” opinion in the West… truly the decline and decadence have arrived. More bread; more circuses… be sure and catch the Real Housewives of New York tonight! I hear that they are going to be having a serious and intense discussion of U.S. foreign policy!!![/quote]

I’m in Taipei this weekend. We can discuss this face-to-face if you dare. An ultimatum: meet me at Carnegies. dare you have the guts.

Thanks for ignoring all my other arguments. how convenient. Thanks for admitting that MI6 was brought in to help BP with its problem by illegal means.

Or rather the point is that Vietnam was Communist and had designs on the rest of Indochina. The governments of Indonesia, Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore credit U.S. involvement with giving them the needed time to fight off Communist insurgencies of their own. AND today, the Vietnamese are moving toward capitalism even though officially communist. Are you suggesting that, perhaps, it is the Vietnamese Communist Front that has holstered its “save-the-world” complex to finally come to terms with Reality? So, ultimately, while we are now friends, is it because the US changed or Vietnam?[/quote]

Who changed the most? I don’t know. You tell me.

Interesting that you want to discuss military sales to rogue nations. I would be happy to point out once again that when Saddam was in power, the following nations were chiefly responsible for Iraq’s CONVENTIONAL weapons:

  1. Russia 59%
  2. France 13%
  3. China 12%
  4. Brazil, Croatia, Germany, Czechoslavakia, Austria (5% to 8% each)
  5. US 2.5%
  6. UK 2.5%

But when it comes to missiles, nuclear and chemical weapons technology:

  1. Germany 50%
  2. Austria 8%
  3. Croatia 8%
  4. Italy 5%
  5. France 5%

Both the US and UK were under 1% and most of what the US sold were computers that “could be deemed” to have dual use.

Given that Germany is also the chief or one of the top financial underwriters for Iran, Iraq under Saddam, Syria and other international law respecting nations, well, I just wonder why you are so interested in China and not in so many of our important law-abiding European partners.

www.sipri.org

Nobody has claimed otherwise.

[quote=“Mucha Man”]Since the mid-2000s China had made it clear it was pushing for its own values to become counters to international legal norms. An easy example includes territorial claims based on the extent of Imperial era dominance. No regard is given to the modern maritime boundaries of SE Asian nations.

Hu JIntao has praised “the Castro and Kim regimes in Cuba and North Korea for effectively preserving the purity of Communist ideals.”

China keeps nuclear North Korea propped up, and has blocked Security Council vetoes on NK. It kept Burma afloat. Along with Russia, China vetoed a UN Security Council Resolution which has blocked Syria from facing the International Criminal Court. China has supplied military equipment to Syria, Iraq and Iran.[/quote]

What do you think the US should do about all of this? Is there a one-size fits all diplomatic solution for dealing with all nations that seek to run counter to international legal norms?

Tell that to Obama!

Interesting that you want to discuss military sales to rogue nations. I would be happy to point out once again that when Saddam was in power, the following nations were chiefly responsible for Iraq’s CONVENTIONAL weapons:[/quote]

You’ll recall I never disagreed with this but actually pointed it out myself several times and even sent you a pm once regarding French perfidy with respect to the Oil for Food programs. :cactus: