The United States has attacked the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant (ISIL), also referred to as ISIS, a group of Sunni extremists who have conquered much of northern Iraq. President Obama confirmed that he authorized the airstrikes, as well as airdrops of humanitarian aid to religious minorities currently under siege by ISIS. More information from the Huffington Post:
Ah, when will it all ever end? The longer I inhabit this earth, the more weary I become of the ceaseless & numerous conflicts.
I wonder if Professor Saad Ibrahim of Harvard University credits “the Obama effect” for energizing ISIS in the Middle East?
There was never any hope of democracy working in Iraq. The factions hate each other too much. Iraq is a testament to insanity. Sunnis, Shias, Arabs, Kurds, their religions and cultures are very similar, and Arabic is a common language. There’s no reason they couldn’t get along. The United States spent a lot of blood and treasure giving them the chance to join the civilized world, and instead they’ve chosen religious extremism, internal strife, ethnic cleansing, and perpetual violence. I hope these airstrikes don’t expand. I don’t want us to get any further involved. Leave Iraq to the Iraqis.
“Wall 'em up, leave em to their own devices: no one in, no one out”. But that policy is too expensive, and wouldn’t work while the rest of the world actually still wants their oil.
I think people dying for their religion is all very noble (misguided, but noble), but they shouldn’t bring others into it.
The Obama Effect? I have no idea what that is. It sounds like a bunch of creepy right wing hatred, as usual. If you’ve got a point to make, make it.
Are you having trouble reading? I never said anything like that. I said leave Iraq to the Iraqis, not “wall them up”. I couldn’t possibly give a damn what faction rules Iraq. As far as the oil goes, whichever group ends up in charge will just keep right on selling it.
Professor Saad Ibrahim of Harvard University credited “the Obama effect” for energizing democracy in the MENA region after Obama gave his Cairo speech. The professor snubbed Bush in his comments. In another thread, perhaps on that other site, someone blamed Bush and Blair for the current state of Iraq, as if it was a paradise prior to Saddam’s down-taking.
I just find it peculiar how some people apportion current blame and credit to situations that have been bad for a very long time.
Do you now? You were once willing to give Bush credit for every well digested meal in the Middle East. But when things went wrong, well, that’s a camel of a different hump.
[quote=“Tigerman”]Professor Saad Ibrahim of Harvard University credited “the Obama effect” for energizing democracy in the MENA region after Obama gave his Cairo speech. The professor snubbed Bush in his comments. In another thread, perhaps on that other site, someone blamed Bush and Blair for the current state of Iraq, as if it was a paradise prior to Saddam’s down-taking.
I just find it peculiar how some people apportion current blame and credit to situations that have been bad for a very long time.[/quote]
Iraq wasn’t a paradise before the United States and our allies invaded and destroyed it, but at least it was stable. That’s the best Iraq can hope for. A strongman to keep the place together. And before someone jumps down my throat, no, I don’t think we should support strongman. I don’t think we should “support” anybody, nor should we oppose them, unless they pose an imminent threat to the US and our allies.
I am getting away from saying “Bush did this” or that in Iraq. The United States invaded Iraq, with popular support by a huge margin. It was a huge mistake. We shouldn’t have been anywhere near that nest of vipers.
[quote=“Gao Bohan”]It turns out “The Obama Effect” is just a really bad movie.
imdb.com/title/tt2207006/[/quote]
Never heard of that movie. I was referring to this June 2009 editorial in the WSJ:
Not really.
And you have no room to criticize…
don’t forget, Iran was quite moderate and doing just fine before the US toppled the government and caused a reactionary force that is now the Iran as we know it. Mission Accomplished!
I believe with all of my heart that President Bush had nothing but the best intentions. We as a nation had the best intentions. Our allies had the best intentions.
We were all wrong. Our success in Germany and Japan were dependent on many variables. Everything about Iraq is different. The geology alone makes democracy there untenable. It has one natural resource, oil, a recipe for a lopsided economy with virtually no chance of expanding the middle class into a sizable majority, a cornerstone of democracy. Add to that very little arable land, very little water, a history of religious warfare and ethnic conflict, and the all consuming desire of every ethnic group to control the oil and dominate their rivals. That’s the recipe for disaster and eternal war, not a Wilsonian democracy.
My cursory survey of world conflicts and the development of democracy in my lifetime tells when democracy is handed to a country, it will usually fail. Political reform needs to come from within, otherwise it doesn’t really match the basic idea of democracy. Iraq was very much the US setting up a government inspired by our own in the hopes it would catch on, but there wasn’t ever much indication that it really would.
The UN reports that ISIS is committing outright genocide against the Yazidi, a small minority within Iraq. Apparently the Yazidi practice a secret religion that is neither Islamic nor Christian, and ISIS considers them infidels. They are currently exterminating the Yazidi. What a complete clusterfuck. What a tragedy.
[quote=“Gao Bohan”]I believe with all of my heart that President Bush had nothing but the best intentions. We as a nation had the best intentions. Our allies had the best intentions.
We were all wrong. Our success in Germany and Japan were dependent on many variables. Everything about Iraq is different. The geology alone makes democracy there untenable. It has one natural resource, oil, a recipe for a lopsided economy with virtually no chance of expanding the middle class into a sizable majority, a cornerstone of democracy. Add to that very little arable land, very little water, a history of religious warfare and ethnic conflict, and the all consuming desire of every ethnic group to control the oil and dominate their rivals. That’s the recipe for disaster and eternal war, not a Wilsonian democracy.[/quote]
actually, it’s just that Islam mixed with tribal conflict with a history of Oriental Absolutism mixed with a uneducated backwater is the problem. Delete those and you will get peace.
/joke
seriously, Islam is the problem.
I’m not sure about that. Iran was and is openly committed to the destruction of Israel and has long attempted to sabotage any peace settlement, because the continuation of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is necessary for Iran’s struggle against the Sunni Arab states for leadership of the Muslim world. Iran was pursuing a coordinated soft-power strategy throughout its sphere of influence, using political, economic, and military tools to promote its agenda, and in that regard, Iran meddled in Syria and nurtured Hezbollah, through Syria, in Lebanon.
As a threat to Iraq, Saddam was able to an extent to justify maintaining WMD and a capability to deter Iranian aggression.
Peace between Israel and the Palestinians was one of the two pillars of Bush’s vision for a reformed MENA region. The other of course was a democratic iraq that would, along with a free and democratic Palestinian state, put pressure on autocratic regimes in the region for similar reform.
And for the record, the Mission Accomplished banner was not Bush’s idea and the banner referred only to the sailors on the ship that had returned from its tour of duty in the Persian Gulf… but, the Bush haters all know that. 
I have studied Islam and Islamic history, and yes, it is the problem. What’s happening to the Yazidi right now is the exact same thing that happened to religious minorities who encountered early Muslims. Basically, Islamic theology classifies the world into the House of War and the House of Peace. The latter represents areas controlled by Islam, which tolerates Christians and Jews as “People of the Book”, who could basically live as second class citizens. They had to pay a special tax (jizya), wear special clothes to mark them from Muslims, couldn’t build tall houses or buildings, couldn’t wear religious symbology or worship publicly, etc. Any type of polytheists or animists were immediately slaughtered or forced to convert to Islam. The House of War was all land not controlled by Islam, and the people there faced the same fate as those in the House of Peace, if their armies couldn’t keep out the Muslim hordes.
ISIS is basically just mimicking Muhammad and his earliest followers. The Christians in their territory they’re allowing to live if they pay the jizya, but the Yazidi aren’t Christians, or Jews, or Muslims. So, they’re going to be wiped out.
Religion sucks.