The war in Iraq - Part 5

That is an amazing post.

Note that the poster above states as a fact that Bush is a “serial liar” in one (figurative) breath and in the next (figurative) breath states that it is his opinion that Bush has lied (“probably”).

That single post above illustrates the way that the Bushwhackers have consistently distorted and twisted the issues.

How in the name of all that is reasonable can a person on the one hand claim as a fact that Bush is a “serial liar” and on the other hand, due to the fact that no evidence of lying has ever been put forth, admit that one only believes that Bush is “probably” lying?

How anyone can reasonably and or logically maintain such a fundamentally flawed position (that Bush is in fact a “serial liar”) is beyond my ability to comprehend.

Right there you have it folks… one side is determined to convince everyone, despite a complete lack of supporting evidence, that Bush lied. The method is clear. Just continue to make the claim, over and over again… and many people will eventually begin to believe the lie.

On the contrary, Judith Miller and much of the “mainstream media” did not take a very close, hard look at the Iraq war at the start and much cheerleading was to be found from Day 1. Journalists embedded with the troops provided a thrill unavailable with previous wars – we could watch videophone images of our tanks speeding across the desert. When the insurgency showed up on cue, we started to see that a lot of the predictions of this being a big ol’ cakewalk were wrong. When the WMDs were not found, that was another discordant note. More discordant notes came up as questions gradually arose about the rationale for the war and the actual conduct of the war. We watched as ham-handed attempts to create action-figure-style “heroes” fell apart (to be clear, Pat Tillman and Jessica Lynch are heroes, but they are heroes for very different reasons than the Pentagon tried to paint them as).

If you go back prior to the Iraq invasion to the post-9/11 months, Bush had the press eating out of his hand. Time magazine was running cover stories on how Bush was a “man of faith” and running lots of pieces on Bush’s “clear-eyed leadership.” The real question is how did Bush lose folks so fast – all he had to do was to maintain the basic trust due a guy trying to do the best he could under difficult circumstances.

It’s a grave ethical infraction for the media to ignore the obvious problems with this war from the beginning.

A major part of Saddam’s plan was to have his Baathists melt away and start up a guerilla war. Although Saddam’s under arrest and on trial, we’ve still got his former minions blowing up our guys at a record pace. The “Mission Accomplished” stunt was a lot of malarkey.

What does the media care about the result? With a war, a hurricane or anything that keeps people in front of the TV or scanning the paper, the stations and publishers make money. You make this out to be some sort of monolithic thing that can actually think, but the truth is that the media is made up of zillions of individuals who struggle to get through the week’s news, writing history on the fly. Bush has his own Ailes-run network, Fox News, screaming out lots of propaganda in addition to their pathetic attempts to send out government-made “news” stories to stations across the country willing to play whatever the White House gives them.

There’s a great piece from the New Yorker from many months ago, in which the editors of the Chicago Tribune (loyal supporter of Republican candidates going back more than 100 years) talked about the flak they get from right-wing nutcakes who are absolutely sure that even the latest coverage of a local flower show is outrageously “anti-Bush”.

Fickle? Or perhaps the electorate is simply fed up with Bush violating their trust with lies, bad judgment, and piss-poor execution. Bush probably lost some people when he took his eye off Osama bin Laden to go to Iraq. Probably lost other Americans over WMD, still others over sweetheart deals to his corporate cronies. The ridiculous spectacle of our troops going about with junkyard scraps stuck on their vehicles at the same time while our sole supplier of armored humvees was not even working at full capacity probably lost a few Americans who thought they could count on a Republican administration to do right by the troops. Abu Ghraib shocked and scared Americans who grasped that the war against terror is a war of ideas. In the meanwhile, we saw the Patriot Act’s far-reaching provisions used for a host of non-terror matters. We saw the president pursue disasterous financial policies to give his rich buddies huge tax breaks in the midst of a war in which more than 2000+ Americans have given their lives. We saw the White House draw up enemies’ lists to exclude 42 people from the Social Security town hall meeting in North Dakota – decent American citizens barred from a publicly funded taxpayer event because they might disagree with the president.

There are a lot of reasons not to be happy with this president and not to trust him. None of them “fickle”. Let’s just hope this next election is about “values.”

The Republicans are already starting to distance themselves from the Bushian policies. Politicians will be politicians. Unless they’re lying scumbags like Bush of course. :wink:

On the contrary, it’s a pity that Americans are only now catching onto what a load of crap the Bush presidency has been.

That is an amazing post.[/quote]

Thank you. I think Bush is both a serial liar and intellectually sloppy. If you include the full text of my quote, you see that I am opining about the probability of what might have driven Americans not to trust him.

The probability statement pertains not to whether Bush is a liar or incompetent, as I’ve noted above. You’ve taken text out of context in an apparent attempt to take a cheap shot. Thanks for playing!

So, this is your “money shot”? Out of the large numbers of Americans who no longer trust Bush (check the polls – even Fred sees Bush has a problem), why do you think Americans no longer trust the man? Are you just going to sit there crying into your milk, denyng that there’s a problem and calling all naysayers a bunch of dummies, or are you going to admit that Bush’s credibility problem with the American people stems from two basic sources:

  1. Bush is not trusted to tell the truth; or

  2. Bush is not trusted to do a good job.

I think Bush is a lying sack of crap because he lies. How did you like that whopper he was telling about how we had to invade Iraq because Saddam wouldn’t let the inspectors in? What kind of man says this sort of malarkey with a straight face? I’m fully capable of using my BS-detector just as nearly everybody else should be able to do so. Right now, I’m getting some pretty high readings on this disingenuous attempt to contest the basic fact that Bush has a credibility problem.

Well, then I know some guys with a bridge they’d like to sell you. Do you honestly write back to every email you get from Nigerians claiming that they’re some general’s wife, son or second cousin? :laughing:

Actually, check the current state of American opinion. Americans can think for themselves and they’ve overwhelmingly decided Bush is the sort of lying scumbag who would misrepresent the rationale for a war in which more than 2000 Americans have died. I’m sure the poll question was asked more scientifically than that, but the gist is the same.

Whatever…

Here is what you wrote in its entirety. Rather than delete irrelevant text, I will bold the relevant text. The result will be the same:

You state above that Americans do not trust Bush for one and or two reasons:

Reason 1: because he’s a serial liar on very serious matters like going to war

Reason 2: because he’s intellectually sloppy on those sorts of matters

The fact is, you have claimed that some people distrust Bush because he is a serial liar.

Its a very clever gig, I give you that.

And, that is my point.

You claim and state and accuse over and over and over again that Bush is a liar. You do so in post after post. Of course, when called to provide evidence to support this claim, you flail about intellectually, as there simply is no such evidence available to support or prove your claim.

But, that doesn’t stop you. You cleverly state as fact that Bush is a “serial liar” in one line, while in the next line couch the accusation in terms of opinion.

Its really just a matter of basic fairness and decency. I’m sure that most decent people understand, without any need to contemplate the matter very deeply, that accusing another person of a crime/sin/nasty behavior, and stating the same as fact, when absolutely no evidence to support such accusation/claim has ever been put forth… is simply and fundamentally wrong.

If you had any interest whatsoever in playing fair, you would have worded your statement above as follows:

This manipulation and misrepresentation of reality and facts has been going on for quite some time. Is it any wonder that so many of the more easily influenced, confused and swayed among our population have been confused and bamboozled into believing that Bush did indeed lie?

I think not.

Thanks for playing. Each post of yours further illustrates and supports my contention.

You know as well as I that polls are measures of belief and prove nothing beyond that.

Citing a poll that measures belief as proof of some factual matter supports your assertions in what way?

Truly amazing.

Thanks for playing again, and for illustrating quite nicely how you misrepresent the facts.

Note, readers, how MFGR accuses me of “attempting to contest the basic fact that Bush has a credibility problem”.

At no point have I contested that fact. I agree that Bush is suffereing from a lack of credibility. What I am arguing is that a major reason for that lack of credibility is the persistent and continuous accusation that Bush lied, despite any evidence to prove, let alone support the claim.

MFGR has done it again. Nice work, MFGR. Very nice.

I’m about finished with you MFGR. But, please tell us whether your false accusation above is a result of:

a) your careless reading of my posts;
b) your inability to comprehend what you read; or
c) your deliberate distortion of the facts

I’d like to believe that the answer is a) above. But, what do I know… :idunno:

It’s almost always a judgment call that somebody’s lying, but sometimes there are moments that illustrate it quite well.

Take the wacky whopper Bush was telling about how we had to invade Iraq because Saddam wouldn’t let the inspectors in. Now, we could assume that Bush didn’t know that the inspectors were actually in Iraq until we warned them that the invasion was imminent, but that seems a bit nuts considering that you would expect a minimally competent president to know precisely this sort of thing. I mean, if you’re going to say Iraq is not cooperating with the UN, it would be pretty important to actually know whether or not UN inspections have resumed and the basis for claiming that Iraq is “not” cooperating.

If he mispoke, certainly it would have been something he could have bounced back from – perhaps one of his famous tongue-twisters or a freudian slip – but he didn’t correct himself nor does his sentence revolve around a single misplaced or mispronounced word.

If he was seriously mentally deficient, could he have (despite all the advantages of his famous family name) really survived Yale and Harvard with even a C average?

A reasonable person can easily see that Bush is a lying sack of crap in the same sort of way that we don’t have to “solve” crossword puzzles by looking up each line in the answer key. As reasoning people, we can reach our own conclusions about the many whoppers Bush, his spokesmen, and his top White House officials have repeatedly made. Yes, it’s always going to be a bit subjective, but that doesn’t mean we don’t use objective means to try to struggle with the issue. Are there other possibilities for the false statements? Yes, but nearly all of them require a severely mentally deficient president.

It is?

Many?

Many?

Do us a favor and cite just a few of the many lies that Bush (I really don’t care about anyone else for the sake of this discussion) has made.

Just a few.

I’m sure you can do it.

There’s a whopper, right there… if you’re looking for whoppers.

Bush did indeed state that Saddam refused to let us into Iraq. Yes, it is true, however, that technically, Saddam did let us (the inspectors) back into Iraq (and thus, technically, Bush was wrong)… However, it is also true that Saddam, while letting the inspectors back into Iraq continued nonetheless to restrict their access in Iraq and failed to cooperate completely with the inspectors per his obligations… as such, it is nit at all unreasonable to interpret Bush’s statement that Saddam refused to let u into Iraq to mean that he continued to refuse unrestricted access in Iraq.

But, here’s the whopper:

MFGR above asserts that Bush said “we had to invade Iraq because Saddam wouldn’t let the inspectors in”.

Uh, I don’t think Bush justified the invasion solely on that reason.

To assert or even to imply that Bush made such an argument is dishonest, at best.

Why get into the lying bit…I do not agree with pulling out our troops suddenly (or even publicly suggesting that we do) - tha man’s got a point

[quote]When asked about Mr. Cheney’s remarks on Wednesday, Mr. Murtha replied sarcastically: “I like guys who’ve never been there that criticize us who’ve been there. I like that. I like guys who got five deferments and never been there and send people to war and then don’t like to hear suggestions about what needs to be done.”

In the Vietnam era, Mr. Cheney had five deferments and did not serve in the military.

[/quote]

Also as I recall, much was made of the Bush lied about the fact that Saddam would not let inspectors in BUT when taken in the context of his statements rather than as one sentence it was clear that Bush was speaking about a multi-year period from the end of the first Gulf War and not to a specific incident involving ONE case. Again, this is a bit creative on MFGR’s part but I have to expect nothing less. Anyway, play along with him a while if you like, but you will not find him to be an ethical debator just a slick sophist with some very amusing MFGRisms. Those were the sole reason I kept up a discussion with him for so long. Tres amusant!

[quote=“Elegua”]Why get into the lying bit…I do not agree with pulling out our troops suddenly (or even publicly suggesting that we do) - tha man’s got a point

[quote]When asked about Mr. Cheney’s remarks on Wednesday, Mr. Murtha replied sarcastically: “I like guys who’ve never been there that criticize us who’ve been there. I like that. I like guys who got five deferments and never been there and send people to war and then don’t like to hear suggestions about what needs to be done.”

In the Vietnam era, Mr. Cheney had five deferments and did not serve in the military.

[/quote][/quote]

What is the point? To understand the military andor direct it, one must have served in it?

Usually helps. You also should pay attention to the views of your generals instead of switch them out until you get one that give the answer that you want.

It is?[/quote]

Well, it’s hard to find people who contemporaneously make a separate statement that they are deliberately telling a falsehood. The ideal might be an SMS sent in the middle of the State of the Union speech in which Bush tells some old coke-sniffing buddies: “CHK THS OUT IM LYIN LIKE CRZY. IRQ GR8 BIG LIE! BCN U L8R!! ;D”

Generally people use objective criteria to make a judgment. For example they look at the person’s prior veracity. Does this guy have a good reputation for telling the truth? Were the facts as he characterized them in the past much as I later found them to be? They look at a variety of physical cues – does the man deliver information in a straightforward manner, or does he look like a little smirking chimp caught stealing a banana? Is he at ease with what he’s saying, or does he appear to be struggling to say it? What on earth is he doing with his hands now?!? Hey, stop touching that.

Why deny the basic existence of a human skill as simple as lie detecting? It’s something that police officers and moms around the world know and use on a daily basis.

Many?

Many?

Do us a favor and cite just a few of the many lies that Bush (I really don’t care about anyone else for the sake of this discussion) has made.

Just a few.

I’m sure you can do it.[/quote]

I’ve asked folks to come up with examples of times when Bush has actually said something true. I’m still waiting… :wink:

More on Bushian kleptocracy in action.

[quote]A North Carolina man who was charged yesterday with accepting kickbacks and bribes as a comptroller and financial officer for the American occupation authority in Iraq was hired despite having served prison time for felony fraud in the 1990’s.

The job gave the man, Robert J. Stein, control over $82 million in cash earmarked for Iraqi rebuilding projects.

Along with a web of other conspirators who have not yet been named, Mr. Stein and his wife received “bribes, kickbacks and gratuities amounting to at least $200,000 per month” to steer lucrative construction contracts to companies run by another American, Philip H. Bloom, an affidavit outlining the criminal complaint says. Mr. Stein’s wife, who was not named, has not been charged with wrongdoing in the case; Mr. Bloom was charged with a range of crimes on Wednesday.[/quote]

In the midst of a battle for the hearts and minds of the middle east, we somehow put this schmuck in charge of anything? Great… we get to see America’s future cons hiring our ex-cons.

So, you have no proof that Bush lied about anything. Big surprize.

Fine, just to get you to shut up, I’ll play your game this one time:

In President Bush’s State of the Union address Bush stated the following:

“The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.”

That was true. The British had learned that.

Now, its your turn. Provide proof that Bush lied.

So, you have no proof that Bush lied about anything. Big surprize.

Fine, just to get you to shut up, I’ll play your game this one time:

In President Bush’s State of the Union address Bush stated the following:

“The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.”

That was true. The British had learned that.

Now, its your turn. Provide proof that Bush lied.[/quote]

You’re not done yet. Please prove that the British government had learned that. Chop-chop, my good man!

The British did learn that and the British intelligence has not backed off its claim that he was trying to buy yellowcake. Why? It had nothing to do with forged documents. It had to do with a large and important Iraqi trade delegation that was sent to Niger in 1998 or 1999 to buy what exactly? cotton? peanuts? or …uranium? In fact, according to the Senate report on the subject it was determined that the only one lying was Wilson about what he had “not” found in Niger. He in fact found that this trade delegation was there to buy uranium but chose to censor this himself for which he as severely reprimanded by the Senate. So, Bush said the British learned this to be true. I have no idea what dimwit in the administration pulled this from his text later because it was and still is substantiated. The only need to remove would have been if Bush had said we KNOW that the Iraqis were trying to buy yellowcake. Now, what was such a large and important Iraqi trade delegation doing in Niger then? Buying what? trading what? if not uranium?

That’s a lot of question marks in a paragraph meant to try to assert a fact.

Well the British intelligence was of the view that Saddam was trying to buy uranium from Niger. So, that’s what Bush said. Where’s the lie? Does that contain too many question marks for you too? haha