Theism vs. Atheism: Civil Discussion

Scientifically more plausible, for sure, due to the fact that such a deepsea pressure cooker is an ongoing rather than random event. Being ongoing though you’d expect these thermal vents would be continuously spawning new life forms over the eons. It would also seem that if thermal vents are indeed where life spontaneously arose from non-living matter that they would provide a readily duplicable blueprint for lab experiements which prove the transition from non-life to life.

That’s not what we are seeing though. Contemporary society now pursues hedonism through the temples of shopping malls. Our new gods are gods of pleasure and self interest. Chaos. And we have sold our souls for it (debt anyone?).

Any Rand clearly believed in something (order in the universe, the power of the human spirit) which is really just another way of describing a higher entity. She believed in order - she wasn’t a typical believer but she believed in something.

She certainly believed in a rational order inherent to the universe- but despised the idea of God or any spiritual agency (also really really pro-choice and against anti-abortionists)

Aaand she had no kids.

Maybe her ideology died with her…proving that it too failed the test of time. So is her way of thinking really something to uphold?

But I digress .

As long as there are self-centred Techbros like Peter Thiel (among many others) and Republican politicians who ignore her hatred of Jesus Christ and her support for abortion in pursuit of their ideal of absolute greed, her ideas will live

“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."

[Kung Fu Monkey – Ephemera, blog post, March 19, 2009]”

Who is John Galt eh? :stuck_out_tongue:

She also didn’t support feminism… So…she’s canceled!

And she did believe in a deity. Her God was the Almighty Dollar…a supernatural force outside of the evil of men and women that ultimately decided ones fate. Instead of Good and Evil there was Value Creator or Parasite.

Chaos - the distraction…or destruction of order. Look at western society today working hard to break down our sacred pillars…

  • pillar of free speech
  • Pillar of family
  • Pillar of gender
  • Pillar of patriarchy

And on and on….

Replace order with what? Hedonism…consumerism….pleasure….we are told to work to buy…travel…experience…consume! To love ourselves like the narcissists that we worship.

The temples of today are shopping malls. The gods of today are celebrities. Our unborn children are put at the altars for sacrifice. Too many people, the false gods claim . The earth is gonna explode…another claim from the oracles of Hollywood.

And no…God is not chaos. To love God is to love a set of abstract and good morals that are greater than yourself and for many (like our nuns and priests) at the cost of yourself.

The Ten Commandments come to mind.

God is Order based on a sense of morality that has stood the test of time

Anywhooo lol

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Saying someone holds their “highest value” as God is something that Jordan Peterson said, and denigrates the concept of God. You can find people who hold capitalism, communism, the environment, Taylor Swift, baseball, and their dog as their highest value.

You can find some people who hold dolphins as some extra terrestrials. On a planet of 8 billion Mike you can find some of everything.

We are talking averages and again…please focus on the arguments and not moving goal posts

And yes holding God as highest standard leads to happier more fulfilling lives. Holding Taylor swift as a goddess - I mean yeh you can but have some anti depressants nearby

In ancient greek mythology ‘chaos’ is the nothing from which something emerged in the creation of the universe.

In modern science ‘chaos’; is a property of complex systems where apparently random - but in fact predictable - behaviour emerges in systems which are highly sensitive to starting conditions. So for example the infinite variety of human consciousness emerges from the simplicity of the genetic code.

So all in all I would say that the meaning of chaos that you present is pretty close to the opposite of the meaning that I myself would internalise. The distraction or destruction of order: I guess I would call that decay, decomposition, disorder, or entropy. But not chaos.

I’l definitely give you this one. I found it somewhat amusing to notice a temple in the top floor of the new IKEA shopping complex in Xindian. It seemed very appropriately placed.

I guess now that many people have put god away - including me - it does leave a vacuum: what goes in the vacuum? Obviously finding meaning through the Kardashians or the latest stream of media brainwashing isn’t a winning strategy. I wonder what is. My working plan is cutting out as much clutter as I can and focusing on goals for my family. As you point out, distraction is a problem.

Chaos is chaos. In science it is described as entropy - the state of disorder.

Let’s not split hairs on semantics. You get my point.

Good on you for focusing on family. I’m not one to tell people what to focus on.

I’m just point out my observations after a couple of decades on this planet.

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When people misuse scientific laws to push their favourite social theory… saying it’s all due to entropy is saying the equivalent of “it’s, like, all quantum, man.”

Saying the chaos, in science “is described as entropy - the state of disorder” is also factually incorrect. So rather than being like “it’s all quantum man” the statement is actually more like “according to science elephants are a type of banana.”

There is a point there, but it’s not presented in a very convincing way really. :smiley:

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You’re focusing on the semantics so of course the point is hard to find.

Hedonism - how about that? Our societies have removed God and replaced it with hedonism…consumerism.

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When exactly did hedonism replace God?

So you acknowledge my statement and I presume you agree with it.

What does it matter when? What matters is that it has.

No, I was asking you a question- like, " when exactly did Niger become the the richest country on Earth?" (implied answer: it isn’t) or “when exactly did the Canucks become the greatest team in the NHL?” (implied answer: they’re not).
People normally understand this kind of question without having to have it explained to them.
But, for your benefit, and since you didn’t answer the question: “You think hedonism has replaced God as a value. When did this happen?”
Having you answer would get you to explain what you mean, and when and how this happened.
But since that would force you to answer with something other than vague handwaving, I can see why you’d prefer to avoid it.

It does matter when, or at least how. How do we know that hedonism has “replaced” God, in fact as you said, that “our societies have removed God and replaced it with hedonism…consumerism”?

Maybe there’s just more hedonism now. It’s not like it hasn’t always been there in spades among those who could afford it. Maybe just fewer people believe in gods. How do we differentiate that type of situation from what you’re saying?