Threats of fines for feeding stray dogs

Life Pets & Domestic Animals
1

Should fines be issued to those who feed stray dogs?

  • Yes
  • No
  • The issue is too complex for a simple yes/no answer

0 voters

It’s two parks now that I’ve heard from good sources where signs have been posted prohibiting people to feed strays. One is the park next to Bagel Bagel, and the other one is downtown.(both parks are quite a ways away from one another…) Here’s a portion of two consecutive emails I received two days ago: (the sender is Chinese, and the emails are written in a second language, BTW.

[quote]Hi Chris,

This is the Alice who tried to save a one-cheek-missing dog but didn’t get to do it in time.

I would like to share with you what I have been doing to help with some dogs recently and also to ask you about one stray-dog-related problem that has been bothering me these days.

This might turn out to be a lengthy e-mail, so if you are busy, please save this to be read later (still as soon as possible) or just read the question part first. I am staying up this late because I believe the answer to the question is important… No matter what, thanks for taking your time. :slight_smile:

x x x Sharing Part x x x

Many of my neighbors and I have been feeding the stray dogs who live in the small park in front of my home…until very recently. Most people stopped. Why? Because an official-looking sign showed up in the park, stating that it is ILLEGAL to feed stray dogs in parks… At first, some people thought it was okay to just feed the strays “outside” of the park. However, (below are what I heard from others) an authority in this community declared that even that is NOT acceptable and said that he will order people to take photos of whoever is doing that. So now it is like there is no one who is feeding the stray dogs.

To make things worse, it is said that dog catchers are called to hunt down the dogs in this park. Some of us stray-dog-lovers in this community got very worried about the prospect. So very late last night, after some talks, one of my neighbors and I took the three dogs that we are most familiar with and placed them at her place to avoid letting them be captured, should the dog catchers come very early.
[/quote]

[quote]Hi Chris,

I do not hope Animals Taiwan will change overnight after reading my previous e-mail,(The email asked why caring for mangled dogs while wasting potential to help more dogs) but just in case it has, maybe you guys can lend a hand to help save these dogs in the small park.

If not all of the dogs, I am hoping you guys can help with at least two of them. These two are the father and mother of the three dogs we have helped.

The father is limped from a car accident from before. He looks old, but still quite strong. I’m not sure of his actual age. He is friendly to most people, but he guards this place.

The mother is tail-less, which we believe is due to a tail-cutting act according a trend before that made the people then to believe that tail-less dogs look good. She is tensed and do not trust human beings, not even us who feed her and her family often. She never eats unless she is sure we are in a safe distance.

x x x

You may ask why this family of dogs is so special. Here is the reason:

They are the only stray dog family that kept thus close to each other that I have ever seen. They have been living together at this park for as long as I can remember first seeing them here.

By “living together”, I mean eating together (for example, mama dog will give away the bone in her mouth to her pups if her pups do not yet have food), sleeping together (mama dog and pups sleep together on one spot, and papa dog will sleep at the entrance of the road to guard his family), playing together (I often see them playing some sort of merry-go-around-like game by all biting on a section of a long piece of tree branch or a towel)…

If you are willing to come, you can even see how now this mama dog, who is afraid of people, will try to come near the home of my neighbor where we kept her pups. She sometimes emits these barely audiable tearful squeaks as if she is trying to see if her pups are doing ok in there.

x x x

We really want to help this whole family, inclusive of the papa dog and mama dog, but we do not have the required equipment.

If you can help catch these two dogs (if not all) and help them get the 8-in-1 shots (I think my neighbors -two of them- and I can together help pay for these two shots, but I cannot guarantee… I will have to ask them), we can help call the special dog catchers who work with an organization that take in healthy strays to take them away afterwards. This organization will only take in healthy strays only if they are immune with 8-in-1 and also if they are taken in by their special dog catchers.

There is this doctor who actually came to us to help administer the 8-in-1 shots for the three dogs today. If you can help to get those two dogs down, I believe it won’t be hard to ask the doctor to come help.

I know the chances of my request to become reality is slim, but I am giving it a try. There does not seem to be any other hope for them if other dog catchers come.

Thank you so much for reading this through.

Please act as soon as possible if this request is workable.

[b]I would like to point out that, in addition to my previous e-mail’s points, STRAY dogs are STRAY because they are abandoned by their previous owners or are later generations of strays. In a sense, NONE of the stray dogs are “lucky” just because they did not lose any part of their body.

Dogs have feelings and I believe they are hurt inside once they are abandoned. Second or later generations of strays might not know their parents’ past, but they are often looked down upon by people.

Just from the window of my home, I recently witnessed more than three times of people who have dogs of their own coming into this park and throwing stones, shoes, or whatever they can find unmercifully at these “stationed” stray dogs. It’s as if it’s a dog version of the unequalty of races.
[/b]
Please consider my porposal.[/quote]

We will be helping with the capture of these dogs, FWIW, but that’s not the question. Why on earth would fines be issued to people who feed strays? :frowning: :s Any suggestions on how to approach this problem?

Thanks in advance,

Chris

2

I’d be a lot more sympathetic to stray-dog feeders if they were also stray-dog poop picker-uppers.

3

[quote=“Maoman”]I’d be a lot more sympathetic to stray-dog feeders if they were also stray-dog poop picker-uppers.[/quote]Sorry Maoman, but that’s a pathetic response. How do you go about associating the dog’s feces to the people who are compassionate enough to feed the dogs? Why would you be more sympathetic for the dog feeders if they picked up stray dog poop? Absolute non-sense. Besides, you should be sympathetic for the dogs, since that’s what this is all about. Feeders don’t need your sympathy. The starving dogs, however, could use your sympathy.

4

There’s a direct corelation of food to feces. If people feed stray dogs in a neighborhood, they stay. If there’s enough food, more come. And nobody picks up the shit, which means the local parks and playgrounds become unfit to walk in. And because stray dogs often carry disease and parasites, it means it’s easier for other dogs to pick up those diseases and parasites from the poop that accumulates. The people feeding strays mean well, I’m sure, but the road to hell isn’t just paved with good intentions, it seems.

5

Right. So let’s let the dog starve because they will poop more if people feed them. Non sense. :s Your logic is probably exactly what leads some people to prohibit feeding strays, BTW. That’s cold… Very cold…

OK, so we stop feeding them. Now what? We abandon animals in the first place, then we let them starve because they spoil our environment? Truly disappointed with your response, here, Maoman. (no emoticons available)

6

[quote=“bobepine”]Right. So let’s let the dog starve because they will poop more if people feed them. Non sense. :s Your logic is probably exactly what leads some people to prohibit feeding strays, BTW. That’s cold… Very cold…

OK, so we stop feeding them. Now what? We abandon animals in the first place, then we let them starve because they spoil our environment? Truly disappointed with your response, here, boss. (no emoticons available)[/quote]
The streets are no place for dogs - I detest the people that put them there. The people that keep them there aren’t doing much to improve the streets though. It’s easy to throw table scraps outside one’s door, but it takes real civic-mindedness to clean up the poop that is a direct result of those thrown away table scraps. Haven’t seen much of that, I’m afraid.

7

Have you been cleaning dog shit, Maoman? Why does feeding them means the same person would have to clean the stools? Do your part, clean the stools, while others feed them. How does that sound? Team work? Better than complaining and throwing the ball at those who do some of the leg work at least!

Maybe we should stop feeding you, too, Maoman. After all, humans are polluting the planet far more than strays.

8

I clean up dog shit all the time, depending on the availability of my plastic bags. If I saw someone feeding strays in my neighborhood, I’d give him hell. I don’t want stray dogs in my neighborhood. Period. There’s already a pack of wild dogs on the public land next to the golf course at Lotus Hill. I can’t walk Gustav there, even on a leash, because the damn dogs are so territorial. They get aggro with joggers, too. I wish someone would come and take them away.

9

[quote=“Maoman”]If I saw someone feeding strays in my neighborhood, I’d give him hell.[/quote]Let them starve instead right? Then the next neighborhood has another guy like you, and the next neighborhood, and the next neighborhood… What does that leave for the abandoned beings known as stray dogs? I think that speaks for you, Maoman. I’m done here.

10

You asked and got answer. I agree with Maoman on this one. It’s a reasonable request. If you are feeding a stray dog, then I would say by default you are the owner of that dog. Or responsible for your actions in some form. You realize that having all that feces leads to breeding diseases that can effect you, right?

Bobepine, you want the community to help but then you attack them for their responses. Especially the ones who HAVE dogs. If you don’t like what the community has to offer, then STOP asking the community for input and help.

11

Whatever. Asking someone to follow the strays he/she feeds so that he/she can clean the feces that follows. Non sense.

You asked and got answer. [/quote]That was not an answer. It was a selfish rant from a dog owner who could not care less that strays are starving.

Let’s get back on topic. Are you saying it’s OK to issue fines to stray dogs feeders? Should we begin to monitor which ones do, and which ones do not pick up feces after the strays they feed?

12

[quote=“bobepine”]Whatever. Asking someone to follow the strays he/she feeds so that he/she can clean the feces that follows. Non sense.

You asked and got answer. [/quote]That was not an answer. It was a selfish rant from a dog owner who could not care less that strays are starving.

Let’s get back on topic. Are you saying it’s OK to issue fines to stray dogs feeders? Should we begin to monitor which ones do, and which ones do not pick up feces after the strays they feed?[/quote]

No you’re right it wasn’t an answer, it was an observation with a comment/opinion mixed in.

Here’s some advice. Thank Fred Smith.

stop prancing around like some mindless caricature of an outraged sophomore. …

13

I thought it was a fact that barring other factors, an area will end up with as many strays as there is food to support. More food = more strays. I don’t want my neighborhood full of stray dogs, and I will also confront those who feed them. If they care for the dogs that much, they can damn well take them in, or at least, as Maoman suggests take full responsibility for them for cleaning up their crap. We have enough dog shit lying around in neighborhood from the pets without adding more from strays.

14

I lived in Hualien during my 2-year Taiwan stint and I can tell you that the dogs there were a hinderance.

Round 'em up and gas 'em. Keep them for a week and put 'em to sleep if no one picks 'em up.

Dog catchers and dog tags. No dog tag = bye bye, my friend.

Feeding strays just creates another problem. And what most people feed them isn’t good for them anyway. Bunch of dogs running around is really dirty.

And don’t get me started on the dogs that actually have owners. There are some streets I had to avoid where they were on long chains or just roaming free, running after you. They bite sometimes.

15

Here are my thoughts:

(1) You should only feed in an area where the majority of strays are known to be neutered. Intact dogs will produce larger litters because of the easily available food source. This is something I have been thinking about recently: a humane way to reduce the number of pups born stray is to limit the food source (one of the major reasons for the reduced number of strays in Taipei is that there is no longer piles of garbage on the street corners every night). Perhaps a gradual reduction in the amounts fed would be the best way to go about it. CNR obviously is best, as you can feed the dogs what they need without concern for more pups being born.

(2) People who care about strays should do their best to appease the communities they live among; the dogs don’t just need food, they need understanding neighbours. Whether you feed strays or not, organizing a morning clean-up of the sidewalks, etc. would be a great step toward creating harmony between the dogs and the neighbours and would lessen the chances of dogcatchers being called. I can see how some people might think that supporting strays is irresponsible; we obviously need to work hard to change that point of view. Also, if dogs are spotted going in the wrong place, they can be taught not to with a bucket of water (which would also take care of the mess). Feeding healthier food was also make the stools easier to clean up.

(3) I see some anger directed towards the dogs, and I just want to remind people that this problem is not caused by the dogs; obviously, it’s man-made, and if we want to really put a stop to stray animals doing what they must do on our sidewalks, we need to get to the root of the problem and direct that anger toward those irresponsible people who abandon animals, don’t neuter them, let them wander off-leash or perhaps not clean up after them.

Just my tuppence-worth.

16

[quote=“j99l88e77”]I lived in Hualian during my 2-year Taiwan stint and I can tell you that the dogs there were a hinderance.

Round 'em up and gas 'em. Keep them for a week and put 'em to sleep if no one picks 'em up.

Dog catchers and dog tags. No dog tag = bye bye, my friend.

Feeding strays just creates another problem. And what most people feed them isn’t good for them anyway. Bunch of dogs running around is really dirty.

And don’t get me started on the dogs that actually have owners. There are some streets I had to avoid where they were on long chains or just roaming free, running after you. They bite sometimes.[/quote]

Wow, that’s a really thoughtful, compassionate response. Presumably you’d like everything else that annoys you in your life to be dealt with in a simliar iron-fisted manner? :unamused:

Sorry, but why hasn’t anyone questioned the municipality/parks department/whoever is in control of the parks’ cleanliness here? It’s all just, “well, there’s dog shit on the ground, let’s blame the dogs + people who feed them, there ya go problem solved.” So, because someone is feeding a stray animal it immediately becomes his responsibility to make sure all of the suroundings in which the animal may roam are kept squeaky clean?

Bollocks. The government/municipality should be the ones keeping public spaces clean and safe. They should be funding CNR programs, and educating the general populace on how to take care of animals, why to neuter them, why to clean up after them, and why not to dump them in the street.

Blaming people who feed stray dogs, or saying that these people must assume all responsiblity for the actions of these animals is very short sighted, and just a knee-jerk response, which will probably have no effect at all on the overall problem, just as the whole dog catching and killing thing does. Look at the studies. CNR is what works. If the government/municipailty chooses to ignore the findings and recommendations of these studies, and continues on their course of fighting the symptoms (which will just keep on recurring and recurring) instead of tackling the roots of the problem, it’s their fault.

17

Very well said, trapjaw.

Blaming dog feeders, or asking them to be responsible for the dogs they feed is incongruous, IMO. It’s absurd. Not only is it incongruous, it is selfish, and very inconsiderate. The regrettable position strays are in is due to people’s actions in the first place; something people find very convenient to disregard.

[quote=“Stray Dog”]You should only feed in an area where the majority of strays are known to be neutered. Intact dogs will produce larger litters because of the easily available food source.[/quote]But the dogs that are not neutered end up starving, sick, and you pick them up later once they are one the verge of dying. Lazarus comes to mind. Or Kip, the dog I rescued two days ago who’s bleeding all over because lack of food caused his immune system to be run down, and then skin diseases got the best of his quality of life. I disagree strongly. [quote=“Stary Dog”]This is something I have been thinking about recently: a humane way to reduce the number of pups born stray is to limit the food source[/quote]How is it humane to starve dogs in order to make them weak/sick so that they can’t reproduce? You make sense, it does reduce their ability to reproduce, but again, it makes them sick, it makes them suffer, and I see nothing humane about doing that. Issuing fines to those who do feed intact or neutered strays is alienated, IMO; a very inhumane way to work around the consequences of our actions. Again, I disagree.

The rest of your post is spot on, Sean. CNR is the solution, and there is indeed a lot of work to be done in order to raise awareness of the really despicable conditions strays have to put up with, and in order for people to make some kind of compromises to help them. Issuing fines for those who feed strays is a far cry from any kind of compromises, so is “giving hell” to dog feeders, or expecting them to be responsible for these dogs.

And that’s the problem. People are not willing to make compromises for animals. They are considered less than human, yet we’re all animals, and we all need the same thing. Food, rest, love, exercise, etc. Here’s a good example of that mentality:

[quote=“j…”]Feeding strays just creates another problem. [/quote]The point is, strays are a problem we created, and if feeding them means additional problems, then few people want to hear about it. They’d rather see dogs starve to death instead of having to get involved and clean the poop they are so adamant to complain about.

[quote=“Namahottie”]stop prancing around like some mindless caricature of an outraged sophomore. [/quote]Address the message, not the messenger.

To conclude, If poop on the street is more bothersome to you than the suffering of a starving being, than I rest my case because we obviously live in two separate worlds, or so it seems. :frowning:

18

[quote=“bobepine”]
Blaming dog feeders, or asking them to be responsible for the dogs they feed is incongruous, IMO. It’s absurd.[/quote]No it isnt. Feeding strays leads to an increase in the population, true or false? If someone is so determined that these strays should be fed then why don’t they go the whole nine yards and either take them in as pets or have them neutered. If the feeders are going to directly cause the stray population to increase then in my book they are least half as guilty as the ones who threw them out on the streets in the first place.

[quote=“bobepine”]Not only is it incongruous, it is selfish, and very inconsiderate. The regrettable position strays are in is due to people’s actions in the first place; something people find very convenient to disregard.
[/quote]Did I throw a pet out on the street? No. I don’t know anyone so hypocritical as to discard a pet and then complain that it craps outside.

[quote=“bobepine”]How is it humane to starve dogs in order to make them weak/sick so that they can’t reproduce? You make sense, it does reduce their ability to reproduce, but again, it makes them sick, it makes them suffer, and I see nothing humane about doing that. Issuing fines to those who do feed intact or neutered strays is alienated, IMO; a very inhumane way to work around the consequences of our actions. Again, I disagree.
[/quote]I agree. Better to run the CNR program since we know culling doesn’t reduce the population.

[quote=“bobepine”]CNR is the solution, and there is indeed a lot of work to be done in order to raise awareness of the really despicable conditions strays have to put up with, and in order for people to make some kind of compromises to help them. Issuing fines for those who feed strays is a far cry from any kind of compromises, so is “giving hell” to dog feeders, or expecting them to be responsible for these dogs.
[/quote]On the contrary. I think if we raise some money by fining these misguided people we’d have more cash available for a CNR program. I’d like to see those who discard animals thrown in jail or divested of their wordly belongings TBH, but what happened to that much-trumpeted chipping scheme that was supposed to end this problem? Nothing. The machines are sold, some crooked politician or another gets his red envelope and everything continues as usual.

[quote=“bobepine”]
And that’s the problem. People are not willing to make compromises for animals. They are considered less than human, yet we’re all animals, and we all need the same thing. Food, rest, love, exercise, etc.[/quote]Dude, I already tiptoe around shit just to go shopping and sit here trying to study while listening to dogs barking so loud it’s like they are in my fucking head. What more do you want?

[quote=“bobepine”]The point is, strays are a problem we created, and if feeding them means additional problems, then few people want to hear about it. They’d rather see dogs starve to death instead of having to get involved and clean the poop they are so adamant to complain about.[/quote]Gee. Let me examine myself here. I don’t want to go out and clean up the shit of dogs that I never owned, didn’t abandon, don’t feed. I’m such a bad person. Shame on me.

[quote=“bobepine”]
To conclude, If poop on the street is more bothersome to you than the suffering of a starving being, than I rest my case because we obviously live in two separate worlds, or so it seems. :frowning:[/quote]I’m sorry about those starving animals, but merely feeding them is not helping any. As heartbreaking as it is, it still isn’t helping any to feed them. You’re only making things worse in the long run.

19

[quote=“redwagon”][quote=“bobepine”]
Blaming dog feeders, or asking them to be responsible for the dogs they feed is incongruous, IMO. It’s absurd.[/quote]No it isnt. Feeding strays leads to an increase in the population, true or false?[/quote]True. The thing is, starving living beings to control population isn’t an option in my book.

[quote]I don’t know anyone so hypocritical as to discard a pet and then complain that it craps outside.[/quote]You’d be surprised…

[quote]Dude, I already tiptoe around shit just to go shopping and sit here trying to study while listening to dogs barking so loud it’s like they are in my fucking head. What more do you want?[/quote]For you to understand that people are responsible for that, and that animals should not pay the price via starvation for our own mistakes. You may not have abandoned an animal, but 10 000 people have in 2006. Why starve the dogs on top of that? To make it easier on people all the while people are responsible for it in the first place? That’s incongruous.

[quote]Gee. Let me examine myself here. I don’t want to go out and clean up the shit of dogs that I never owned, didn’t abandon, don’t feed. I’m such a bad person. Shame on me.[/quote]Not asking for you to go out and clean poop. Just asking for you to give a break to the animals, and to those who help them. But yes, if the feces bother you that much, you are free to pick up some of it. :wink:

[quote]I’m sorry about those starving animals, but merely feeding them is not helping any. As heartbreaking as it is, it still isn’t helping any to feed them. You’re only making things worse in the long run.[/quote]That’s why, in the long run, better solutions such as CNR are necessary to make up for our mistakes. Starving the dogs is not a solution, it is selfish, inhumane, and incongruous.

20

Take a look at my post again. I never suggested starving the dogs.

If you want to feed strays, you should neuter them too; it’s as simple as that. If not, you’re producing more strays, which will essentially reduce the amount of food available to each dog, and thereby cause more suffering and starvation.

I am seeing exactly this more and more in my work; the people who are feeding the strays are now doing their best to get them neutered. The message has gone out and people are taking note. Plus, those feeding the dogs are in the best position to capture them for sterilization and vaccination. It works.

If you want to artificially raise the amount of food available to stray populations, you must also have a plan to counter the ensuing rise in their numbers. If not, you mat actually be making the problem worse … for more dogs.