Could you please express yourself less ambiguously.
It looks like you’re trying to hide something.
It looks like you want deny any connection between the your campaign and human rights abuses in Tibet. (I’m not just talking about the excesses of the Cultural Revolution. I’m taking about ongoing restrictions on religious freedom. I’m talking about forced abortions and sterilizations. I’m talking about torture of political prisoners. I’m talking about rape of Tibetan women by Chinese police who catch them trying to escape to India and Nepal.)
You say the two issues are “X=X”.
What does that mean? Not equal? Well, no one would dispute that they are not equal in terms of importance.
Or do you want to say “not the same thing”. Again, no one would say they were.
Or do you want to pretend they are “not related”? Then why is one of Zhengjue’s stated goals (in your youtube video) the cutting of funding from Taiwanese citizens for the Tibetan government-in-exile, which is one of the major sources of information about human rights abuses inside Tibet?
It seems to me that it would make sense for you to support human rights violations inside Tibet, especially restrictions on religious freedom.
After all, that would be one way of stopping a nation of people from practicing (and exporting) something that they call “Buddhism”, but you do not.
[quote=“Tantrismuskritik”][quote=“adikarmika”]
You think that your organisation has no political agenda?
You think that just because there are no records of donations from political organisations that Zhengjue doesn’t have any political agenda?
Do you really think that your private donors are politically neutral?
Do you know for sure where your private donors get their money from?
…[/quote]
So many questions…
May I ask a question? If you plan to fly to your hometown, do you need to research how the airport is built up? How the airplane is produced? From which factory is the engine? How does engine work? etc.
Or you need to find out an airplane company, to book a ticket, to check the airplane, arrive in the airport on time and take the airplane to your hometown?[/quote]
Strange analogy, but as I understand it, what you’re saying is don’t ask where Zhengjue’s funding originates from.
It’s the (political) effect of their campaign that’s important.
Sounds like an admission that Zhengjue is an instrument of the CPC.
It does seem likely that Zhengjue has an agenda beyond a purely religious one, and I can understand why people might presume it to be a CPC-aligned agenda. But is there any actual evidence of this? Is it not perhaps just as likely that someone behind Zhengjue may have been burned by one of the many charlatans who pass themselves off as tantric gurus in Taiwan to scam money and sex? My impression, both from media reports and first-hand observation, is that this type of scam is a widespread phenomenon in Taiwan, and the Zhengjue position might be a reaction, if an extreme one, to such events.
It is not a possibility that can be ruled out, and indeed, for all I know, Zhengjue may receive a fair portion of its funding from people such as you describe.
But …
(1) given that we are advised not to ask probing questions about Zhengjue’s sources of funding,*
(2) given Zhengjue’s stated aim of cutting off the channel of money from Taiwanese private citizens to the Tibetan government-in-exile, and
(3) given the complete lack of any acknowledgement on this thread of the potential effects that whole campaign may have on Taiwanese public sympathy for the Tibetan political cause,
it suggests to me that Zhengjue is an organisation that the CPC would try to support in some way if it could. (The easiest way would simply be to give money to members who than donate it in their own name.)
Such support, if it exists, is likely to be completely invisible to many, if not most, Zhengjue members, who may simply be fanatical religious fundamentalists, ripe for manipulation.
(OK, it’s possible that I may have overstated the case when I said that that Zhengjue seemed like an “instrument” if the CPC. It may have more autonomy than I think.)
For the record, let it be known that I have no association with any Tibetans in Taiwan, and I’m well aware of the way in which Tibetan teachers have set up so-called dharma centres all over the world with the aim of funneling money back to their respective monasteries.
This is nothing new. If fact, Buddhist teachers have been doing this sort of thing for over 2000 years. It can even be said that high-profile teachers have a responsibility to support their students in this way.
But as I’ve already stated several times already, the whole notion that Tibetan Buddhism is not a major tradition of Mahayana Buddhism is so absurd, that anyone who advocates such a position in this day and age has got to have some sort of ulterior motive.
Admittedly, this was by Tantrismuskritik, whose relationship with Zhengjue is unclear.
Does Taiwan even give money to the Tibetan exile government? I know there was a scandal awhile back when some of the exile officials were discovered taking money from the ROC, but the reason this was a scandal was that the ROC claims Tibet (or did at one time).
The ROC does fund something called the Mongolian and Tibetan Affairs Commission, but this is a branch of the ROC government, and has no connection to the Tibetan exile government. The original conceit behind the MTAC was that it was supposed to govern Mongolia and Tibet, as soon as the ROC took back those territories. These days they mainly handle visas for Mongolians and Tibetans, grant scholarships, and organize some cultural/scholarly activities. The only thing that keeps it in the budget at all is its status as a symbol of Taiwan’s rump Chinese identity.
Unless there is some evidence that Zhengjue’s has ties to the PRC government, I would lean towards interpreting its objection to Tibetan Buddhism as fear of competition. What do we know about their founder (I think they call him a “CEO”) that would shed light on why they do what they do? (Strange that we’ve reached 50 pages without discussing this.)
EDIT: Sorry, I misunderstood. Apparently they seek to cut off the flow of contributions to the Tibetan exile government from private citizens in Taiwan, not from the ROC government. For my part I would like to see contributions to certain Tibetan Buddhist groups (such as the FPMT) banned. On the other hand, I am no friend of “Big Buddhism” in Taiwan either, and would love to see groups like Tzu Chi investigated.
If buddhism wants his/her claims that he/she isn’t a duck to be a bit more credible, then he/she should stop looking like a duck and waddling like one.
If buddhism’s main concern is protecting women from sexual assault, then he/she should at least acknowledge that sexual assault of Tibetan women at the hands of Chinese security forces is an ongoing problem, and that one of the organisations that brings this sort of thing to the world’s attention is the Tibetan government-in-exile - for whom Zhengjue would like to restrict funding from the Taiwanese public. (You gotta wonder why.)
On the other hand, if their campaign is not about protecting women and, as you suggest, all about protecting their slice of the market through negative advertising, then buddhism should fess up and say so. Otherwise, as far as I’m concerned, he/she still looks and waddles like a duck, and people are entitled to draw their own conclusions.
I must have missed something, and don’t want to slog back through the entire thread. Could you please point me to the source for this? (I’m also curious about Zhengjue’s motivations.)
[quote=“adikarmika”]
I’m taking about ongoing restrictions on religious freedom. I’m talking about forced abortions and sterilizations. I’m talking about torture of political prisoners. I’m talking about rape of Tibetan women by Chinese police who catch them trying to escape to India and Nepal.[/quote]
Your statements show that you mix the religious topic with the political one. The religious topic focuses on whether the Tibetan Buddhism matches the teachings of Buddha Shakyamuni. It’s meaningless to discuss the state of Tibet. As I read, your concern focuses much on the Tibetan politic, than I would like to ask: Why don’t you research the old Tibet under the rule of XIV Dalai Lama? How hardly the serfs have to work for the lamas? How terribly they are killed by the landlord hierarchy (= lamas) to offer their brains, their hearts, their hands etc. for the ritual ceremony of Tibetan Buddhism? How sadly the female serfs are raped by lamas? Why are there always bodies of death girls outside the lama monastery? If you never know about THIS, please go to research the history of Tibet (especially under the rule of Dalai Lamas) first, you will find out a new impression of Tibet.
(For reference: The Story of Tibet’s Serfs 1-6: http://youtu.be/xBipTf8U-g8)
[quote=“adikarmika”]
Strange analogy, but as I understand it, what you’re saying is don’t ask where Zhengjue’s funding originates from.
It’s the (political) effect of their campaign that’s important.
Sounds like an admission that Zhengjue is an instrument of the CPC.[/quote]
According to your logic, it might be also necessary to ask: Which campaign are you from? The American CIA which supports the underground organizations of Tibet to separate China? Or the American NED (National Endowment for Democracy) which offers the XIV Dalai Lama yearly at least 2 Millionen dollars for his indepentant activities? It sounds like an admission that you are an instrument of the CIA or the NED? If you are not, please focus your statements on the religious topic: The Tibetan Buddhism is not Buddhism, the tantric sex is not teachings of Buddhism.
I am afraid your observation is not correct. In the teachings of Buddhism, it’s allowed to distinguish the fish eyes from the genuine pearls. It means the Buddha dharma have to be kept purely. It means the essence of Buddha dharma is the eight vijnanas（八識論）. If there is one sect insisting the characters of all dharmas are consciousness (the 6th vijnana), it’s far away from the teachings of Buddha Shakyamuni, and has to be pointed out as a fake one because the consciousness vanishes every night and it is impermanent which is not the Diamond Heart to be meant. Unfortunately, the lamas of Tibetan Buddhism teaches their followers that the consciousness (the 6th vijnana) is the core of Buddhist teachings and they can experience the enlightenment during tantric sexual practice. Therefore it’s important to point out their fake teachings. Because the Buddha Shakyamuni never teaches the tantric sex. Because the Buddha Shakyamuni always says the consciousness is impermanent and dual. The consciousness is definitely not the Diamond Heart.
If you are really interested in the Buddhist teachings, please read some teachings of Four āgama（四阿含經）about the teachings that the consciousness is not the target of true dharma. Thanks.
I am afraid your observation is not correct. In the teachings of Buddhism, it’s allowed to distinguish the fish eyes from the genuine pearls. It means the Buddha dharma have to be kept purely. [/quote]
Who decides what is pure? Buddha did not write anything by himself. Bunch of his followers after many generations wrote down their interpretation separately what they thought a religion should be. Considering all of them were in the same position, all of them should have pure religion and that includes Tantric and Tibetian Buddhism too. Just because one person decided his personal religious trend is pure doesn’t mean everything else is impure.
I must have missed something, and don’t want to slog back through the entire thread. Could you please point me to the source for this? (I’m also curious about Zhengjue’s motivations.)[/quote] youtube.com/watch?v=VWEtN3n7 … e=youtu.be
While the great bulk of the video is pure fundamentalist sectarian nonsense, based on peculiar essentialist notions of what Buddhism is, as well as totally unfounded beliefs about what the Buddha taught, there is also this passage:
[quote]The lamas in exile around the world all consider Taiwan to be their top destination.
Formosa Taiwan seems to have become the major financial donor to the Tibetan government in exile.
Not only have lamas drained the Taiwanese people’s hard-earned money …[/quote]
Based on this passage, I put it to buddhism that curtailing funding for the Tibetan government-in-exile from Taiwanese individuals was one of Zhengjue’s unstated goals.
To date, he/she has neither denied the accusation nor offered any alternative explanation for the passage.
[quote=“Tantrismuskritik”]Why don’t you research the old Tibet under the rule of XIV Dalai Lama? How hardly the serfs have to work for the lamas? How terribly they are killed by the landlord hierarchy (= lamas) to offer their brains, their hearts, their hands etc. for the ritual ceremony of Tibetan Buddhism? How sadly the female serfs are raped by lamas? Why are there always bodies of death girls outside the lama monastery? If you never know about THIS, please go to research the history of Tibet (especially under the rule of Dalai Lamas) first, you will find out a new impression of Tibet.
(For reference: The Story of Tibet’s Serfs 1-6: youtu.be/xBipTf8U-g8)[/quote]
Thanks all the same, but I’ll stick with well-researched works by historians with academic reputations to uphold, such as Melvyn Goldstein (despite his not being particularly sympathetic to the Tibetan version of history.)
I might be …
Glad to see you finally exercising some capacity to think critically about some of the things you read on the internet.
Now, if you could just take a similar approach to those Chinese propaganda films and blogs that you’re fond of citing (not to mention the Buddhist scriptures as well).
Ah, now I understand. The complaint is not specifically about the Tibetan exile government, but a more general one about how Tibetan lamas view Taiwan primarily as a source of funds. (There was a letter to the editor of the China Post about this just last Tuesday–a follower of Dzongsar Khentse Rinpoche thanked the Taiwanese for supporting monasteries etc. all over South Asia. ) While local Buddhist groups also solicit funds, the Tibetan ones can easily come to view Chinese people solely as potential sponsors. The Tibetans are basically taking advantage of the basic human need for religious identity, in order to milk an alien people of financial resources. Unlike Chinese religions, they do not exist in a symbiotic relationship with other elements of society, but are purely parasitic.
Survival of every religion depends on people and donations. Different religions have different ways to extract money but the result is same. Tibetian religions are not doing anything different than others.
One should never underestimate the need of religious identity or connection human beings have. If Tibetian religion fulfills that then they are entitled to anything they ask in return. I believe they are not forcing people to donate or perform spiritual practices.
No, but they did use monies raised in Taiwan in order to dispossess Indian peasants. (I’m referring to the FPMT’s “Maitreya Project,” in which a Tibetan organization persuaded the Indian government to force the sale of farmland in Kushinagar in order to build a giant Buddha statue. Major funds for the project came from a tour of holy relics, and Taiwan was the biggest source of donations from this.) More generally, they substitute parasitic foreign cults for religions which are well-integrated into people’s lives and cultures, heedless of the long-term consequences. I feel sorry for the Chinese people who get sucked up in religions which take, take, take but never give back.
So your anger is for any religion. Well, there are plenty of people who are leading a good and peaceful life; they believe in themselves in spite of the situations they are going through; they keep themselves together; they go out of their way to help others; just because they are part of a religion. One can not put price on that. If a religion provides peace of mind in return for some money, it’s worth. Need for a connection is deep inside us. Without that we might be doomed. As much as I don’t like religions making fool of public, I understand the need of it. If you see pros and cons, pros wins. If you are not an atheist you will be able to understand it.
No, you misunderstand. Religions have as much variety as workplaces, or countries. Some are humane, others are dreadful, but few of us can avoid working entirely, or live with statelessness. The trick is to pick a country which is democratic and respects human rights, a workplace which treats its employees decently, etc. Tibetan Buddhism may be okay for Tibet (and Mongolia, and the Himalaya), where it is integrated into a wider community, but here in Taiwan it is purely parasitic, draining money and time, and alienating followers from their native religious culture, while offering nothing but bullshit magical promises in return. It is a bit like what would happen if fortune-telling became a religion.
Do the Tibetian Buddhism Followers of Taiwan have same comments as yours? If not then you need to review your reviewing process. Things are usually very different when you look from outside and when you understand it from inside.
[quote=“adikarmika”][quote=“Tantrismuskritik”]Why don’t you research the old Tibet under the rule of XIV Dalai Lama? How hardly the serfs have to work for the lamas? How terribly they are killed by the landlord hierarchy (= lamas) to offer their brains, their hearts, their hands etc. for the ritual ceremony of Tibetan Buddhism? How sadly the female serfs are raped by lamas? Why are there always bodies of death girls outside the lama monastery? If you never know about THIS, please go to research the history of Tibet (especially under the rule of Dalai Lamas) first, you will find out a new impression of Tibet.
(For reference: The Story of Tibet’s Serfs 1-6: youtu.be/xBipTf8U-g8)[/quote]
Thanks all the same, but I’ll stick with well-researched works by historians with academic reputations to uphold, such as Melvyn Goldstein (despite his not being particularly sympathetic to the Tibetan version of history.)[/quote]
As you mentioned, there are a lot of information about the historical Tibet. May I give another hint? There is also historical research about the dark side of Tibetan Buddhism. It’s also important for those who would like to know more detailed vision of the old Tibet.
I might be …
Glad to see you finally exercising some capacity to think critically about some of the things you read on the internet.
Now, if you could just take a similar approach to those Chinese propaganda films and blogs that you’re fond of citing (not to mention the Buddhist scriptures as well).[/quote]
I think it’s more important to see the reality than the surface. Therefore, no matter who provides the videos or sets up the blogs, if there is any information which reacts to the reality, it is worthy and helpful for others to understand the real side of Tibet and Lamaism. But if one is considering whoever reveals the true color of Tibetan Buddhism is supported by China, it’s unrational. Before the existence of PRC, there are western researchers speaking out the Tibetan Buddhism is not Buddhism. Thus, by whom are they supported? The PRC? It should not be the logic of thinkings. And I think those who insist anyone who criticizes the fake teachings of Tibetan Buddhism is friends of China, has to think about the problem of his logical thinkings.
I am afraid your observation is not correct. In the teachings of Buddhism, it’s allowed to distinguish the fish eyes from the genuine pearls. It means the Buddha dharma have to be kept purely. [/quote]
Who decides what is pure? Buddha did not write anything by himself. Bunch of his followers after many generations wrote down their interpretation separately what they thought a religion should be. Considering all of them were in the same position, all of them should have pure religion and that includes Tantric and Tibetian Buddhism too. Just because one person decided his personal religious trend is pure doesn’t mean everything else is impure.[/quote]
According to your logic, the Buddhist teachings are all unbelievable accord of Shakyamuni’s followers. Than, may I ask a question: Who decides the Buddhist teachings included Tantric and Tibetan Buddhism? The gurus and lamas? Another question: If all Buddhist teachings are “created” by followers of generations, should you accept the attendance of historical Buddhism?
As to the purity of Buddhist teachings, your statement is obviously wrong. The only one doctrine of Buddhism is eight mind-king (the eight vijnanas八識論). Buddha has said always the essence of Buddhism is Alayavijnana（第八識） and repeats in Four Agama Sutra that the consciousness is impermanent and dual. But the lamas insist the consciousness never vanishes, it’s continous and the greatest chance to experience it’s “emptiness” is during the tantric sex with female followers. How could a Buddist insist this to fight against the doctrine of Buddha Shakyamuni? I don’t think it is a rational attitude to face the teachings of Buddha. It’s also not a good way to spread out that the Tantric sex is what the Buddha taught. I am afraid that you didn’t realize the basic teachings of Buddha.