Tibetan Buddhism is not Buddhism; Lamas are not Buddhists

Arts & Sciences Religion & Spirituality
541

[quote=“buddhism”][quote=“adikarmika”]
Yes, “overblown” is an apt description of your post.
She was coerced. That’s hardly the same as being a “sex slave”…[/quote]
Perhaps you missed the article somehow; these are Ms. June Campbell’s own words.[/quote]
Your inability to see anything except what you want to see is, of course, nothing new.

While the term “sex slave” does appear in the title of the newspaper article you refer to, it would seem to have been written by a sub-editor. Probably in order to attract readers looking for something salacious.
Nowhere in the article itself does Campbell describe herself as a sex slave.

Nor does she use the term anywhere in her book, Traveller in Space. (Go to Google Books, find the book and do a search for “sex slave”. Guess what. Nothing comes up.)

Not only does she choose not to use the term, she doesn’t even characterise the relationship as one of slavery (as Zla’od has pointed out).
If she really thought of herself as a slave, wouldn’t she have said that she was ordered to become his sexual consort, rather than requested?

542

I am so happy to post this message especially for Buddhism-the forumosa member.

NEW YORK: The Dalai Lama has been awarded one of the world’s leading religion prizes.

The Tibetan Buddhist spiritual leader is the winner of the 2012 Templeton Prize for his work on science and religion. The honor from the John Templeton Foundation, announced Thursday, comes with a $1.7 million award.

:discodance:

543

Of course, the Dalai does have a few skeletons in his closet:

theonion.com/articles/dalai- … elee,1093/

(Maybe they’ll reprint this article in one of Zhengjue’s publications.)

544

My dear lady and Mr. Sigh, please, the focus of our subject has to be correct.
The key issue here is about a prominent monastic guru’s misconduct; he sexually abused his disciples while presented himself as a holy celibate yogi to the world. For a religious leader, such disgraceful deed should not have happened from the very first. We are not into details about his unfortunate chosen “consort.”

No offense to any other religion; just to make an example, if a Cardinal continually and secretly abused several nuns, but presented himself as a holy person to the outside world, is such behavior tolerable?

Most importantly, Kalu tried to keep his case secret, so it is plain obvious that Kalu understood very well that his secret-consort-practice has nothing to do with the Buddhist cultivation; don’t forget, he was one of the celebrated Tibetan Tantric masters who was guiding the world to practice Tibetan “Buddhism.” In a way, Kalu did act in accordance with what he had learnt from his lineage, that the Highest Yoga Tantra (sexuality) is the final goal for practitioners to obtain Buddhahood.

As from our earlier posts, you two are well aware of the Buddhist monastic precepts.

Another piece of info,
An Interview with June Campbell on Codes of Secrecy and SilenceTantric Robes
The Emperor’s Tantric Robes

Tricycle: In Traveler in Space, you speak of your own sexual relationship with the late Kalu Rinpoche [1904-1989]. And the revelation was truly shocking to anyone in the West or the East who had known this master. He was considered to be a great Tibetan teacher; who was presented to the world as a celibate yogi.

Tricycle: You ended up feeling sexually exploited? Used for personal indulgence?

Campbell: …. I’ve got no doubts now that when a male teacher demands a relationship that involves secret sex, an imbalance of power, threats, and deception, the woman is exploited. You have to ask, “Where does the impulse to hide sexual behavior come from?” Especially if it happens in a system that supposedly values the sexual relationship.
…What’s that all about if it’s not about fear of being found out!
And what lies behind that fear? These are the question I had to ask.

Tricycle: You were sworn to secrecy by him?
Campbell: Yes. And by the one other person who knew. A member of his entourage.

545

No it isn’t.

Several Zen gurus have been involved in cases of sexual misconduct that were far more scandalous than that involving Kalu (who, for all we know, may have been enlightened), but you’ve never mentioned anything about them.
Nor have you tried to argue that Zen is not Buddhism (obviously since Zen is just the Japanese version of your own tradition, Chan.)

The fact that Kalu coerced Campbell into having sex is not in dispute.
Nor is the fact that he maintained the outward appearance of a monk while doing so.
That Kalu belonged to a tradition of Buddhism that teaches a technique combining meditation and sex is not in dispute either.

The real issue is your specious argument that, based on these facts, Tibetan Buddhism is not Buddhism.

Actually, that’s not quite right either.
The real issue is the one that you have until now avoided discussing, namely: who instigated your campaign and why?

546

We’re making hash of the word “coercion.” Kalu Rinpoche did not coerce (force) June Campbell to have sex with him, he asked her. She considered it an honor, and only later considered the relationship to be inherently abusive by virtue of the power differential. Is lama-disciple sex necessarily an ethical violation, like psychologist-patient sex, or is it more like a rabbi or Protestant minister who begins dating one of his / her parishioners? (Or is that wrong too? How can we possibly decide?) Notice that Kalu Rinpoche did not order Campbell to submit, but only invited her–he did not invoke tantric obedience or anything. The fact that Campbell was naive about all this does not turn seduction into rape.

On the other hand, it seems clear that Kalu Rinpoche was misrepresenting himself as celibate. Apparently this sort of subterfuge is somewhat common, though it is difficult to know how common, or how accepted within the hierarchy, or whether there are differences among the several Tibetan Buddhist monastic orders. Whether this violates the vinaya is a theological matter which I am not competent to pronounce upon, since I am not a Buddhist theologian (just as I have no business telling the Catholics whether they ought to have women priests). Zhengjue has made its opinion abundantly clear, but it is just an opinion.

547

[quote=“Zla’od”]The fact that Campbell was naive about all this does not turn seduction into rape.

On the other hand, it seems clear that Kalu Rinpoche was misrepresenting himself as celibate.[/quote]

Nor does the fact that someone wrote a book mean anything happened at all.

Even if this teacher did have sex, I’m sorry–I’m simply not scandalized.

I do not presume Kalu Rinpoche is guilty of any wrongdoing any more than I presume June Campbell is innocent of it. All we have is a glorified (by virtue of a printing press) rumor being offered as some kind of “evidence” that “Buddhism is bad.”

My point would be that even if Kalu Rinpoche DID misrepresent his sexual life–which I am NOT convinced he did–it wouldn’t have any bearing whatsoever on my view of Buddhism.

Yet there is a small, distinct cabal of anonymous(y) internet jockeys going from Buddhist forum to Buddhist forum, incessantly invoking June Campbell and several other talking points as proof that “Tibetan Buddhism is bad.”

Curious, that.

548

[quote=“SauLan”]Yet there is a small, distinct cabal of anonymous(y) internet jockeys going from Buddhist forum to Buddhist forum, incessantly invoking June Campbell and several other talking points as proof that “Tibetan Buddhism is bad.”

Curious, that.[/quote]
And your theory is…?

549

[quote=“adikarmika”][quote=“SauLan”]Yet there is a small, distinct cabal of anonymous(y) internet jockeys going from Buddhist forum to Buddhist forum, incessantly invoking June Campbell and several other talking points as proof that “Tibetan Buddhism is bad.”

Curious, that.[/quote]
And your theory is…?[/quote]

I honestly don’t know. All I know is they are doing it, that it’s definitely several people as opposed to one; however at least one of them is fond of posing as 2-3 different users and “supporting” each other…er, his/herself.

Sometimes I’ve wondered if it’s counter-advertising for Zen…sometimes a Zen center (often the same one) will be suggested as a “healthy alternative” to Tibetan Buddhism.

Even when subtle, and often in the guise of being simply anti-Vajrayana, the undertone is consistently anti-Tibetan. The single most striking aspect, to me, is the use of terms, phrases, and sometimes entire sentences from Chinese government media. Even if this group is not Chinese, why on earth would they consider this tactic useful, or more importantly, why do they feel that Chinese government media, of all things, is the best source on Buddhist issues of all things?

There are latchers-on…several fundamentalist Christians who sort of piggyback on the whole “anti-Eastern” thing, but they don’t seem to be the driving force.

There is one American couple I’m aware of who devote an inordinate amount of time to trashing Tibetan Buddhism, and I’ve sometimes wondered if it could be them. They also have absolutely no compunction about using Chinese political ramblings, and do so liberally on their own website, American Buddhist.

What I do know is that this group spends all day, every day, criticizing things-Tibetan. Conclusions drawn from that fact can hardly be blamed on the reader.

550

Well yes, I have been going on the assumption that June Campbell is credible. The tone of her remarks (which are measured and not at all sensation-seeking) leads me to believe this. Perhaps I am wrong.

The reason Zhengjue people heard about this forum is–I told them. Way back when the OP asked about their signs, I stopped by their center and asked them. I mentioned that there was this discussion going on, and gave them the link. So here they are.

I would be interested to learn how they gravitated to the subject. I believe a sex scandal was mentioned, but that hardly explains why they would choose that as the main thing to print on banners and hang from their building.

551

Have you seen the website, multipletext.com/ ?

Interesting to see the series of 18 articles entitled “Is Lamaism Buddhism?” at multipletext.com/listlama.htm
Most of it is so absurd and extreme that it makes Tantrismuskritik and buddhism look like voices of impartiality and sound reason.

Together with the other blatantly anti-Tibet/pro-China political propaganda on the rest of the website (search for articles on Tiananmen, for example), it’s hard to see how Zhengjue’s campaign is not totally aligned with the objectives of the Chinese government.

552

Have you seen the website, multipletext.com/ ?

Interesting to see the series of 18 articles entitled “Is Lamaism Buddhism?” at multipletext.com/listlama.htm
Most of it is so absurd and extreme that it makes Tantrismuskritik and buddhism look like voices of impartiality and sound reason.

Together with the other blatantly anti-Tibet/pro-China political propaganda on the rest of the website (search for articles on Tiananmen, for example), it’s hard to see how Zhengjue’s campaign is not totally aligned with the objectives of the Chinese government.[/quote]

Wow. Nope, hadn’t seen that. I’ll have to approach it after a full night’s sleep and with a fresh cup of coffee in my hand.

The mere fact that it’s written in English inspires me to smell a rat.

553

Buddhism, I’m having a hard time finding this book (and publishing company); do you think you could scan page 376? Or if you could photocopy it, I would send payment for copying costs, postage, etc.

You have said this page contains a passage about 12 year old girls being used in tantra; I think it’s very important to look at this original page by Fazun.

Fazun passed away in 1980, but the book was published in 1986; do you know who it was that was responsible for publishing his translation at that time?

Thank you, and I will be very happy to compensate you for any costs in getting this page to me, since this book seems to be very rare.

554

It’s been 56 pages, I really can not connect Zhengjue with anti-Tibet/pro-China political propaganda. sorry

555

Try looking with different keywords and key concepts, you will see a direct mutual relationship.

556

My dear lady and Mr. Sigh, please, the focus of our subject has to be correct.
The key issue here is about a prominent monastic guru’s misconduct; he sexually abused his disciples while presented himself as a holy celibate yogi to the world. For a religious leader, such disgraceful deed should not have happened from the very first. We are not into details about his unfortunate chosen “consort.”

No offense to any other religion; just to make an example, if a Cardinal continually and secretly abused several nuns, but presented himself as a holy person to the outside world, is such behavior tolerable?

Most importantly, Kalu tried to keep his case secret, so it is plain obvious that Kalu understood very well that his secret-consort-practice has nothing to do with the Buddhist cultivation; don’t forget, he was one of the celebrated Tibetan Tantric masters who was guiding the world to practice Tibetan “Buddhism.” In a way, Kalu did act in accordance with what he had learnt from his lineage, that the Highest Yoga Tantra (sexuality) is the final goal for practitioners to obtain Buddhahood.

As from our earlier posts, you two are well aware of the Buddhist monastic precepts.

Another piece of info,
An Interview with June Campbell on Codes of Secrecy and SilenceTantric Robes
The Emperor’s Tantric Robes

Tricycle: In Traveler in Space, you speak of your own sexual relationship with the late Kalu Rinpoche [1904-1989]. And the revelation was truly shocking to anyone in the West or the East who had known this master. He was considered to be a great Tibetan teacher; who was presented to the world as a celibate yogi.

Tricycle: You ended up feeling sexually exploited? Used for personal indulgence?

Campbell: …. I’ve got no doubts now that when a male teacher demands a relationship that involves secret sex, an imbalance of power, threats, and deception, the woman is exploited. You have to ask, “Where does the impulse to hide sexual behavior come from?” Especially if it happens in a system that supposedly values the sexual relationship.
…What’s that all about if it’s not about fear of being found out!
And what lies behind that fear? These are the question I had to ask.

Tricycle: You were sworn to secrecy by him?
Campbell: Yes. And by the one other person who knew. A member of his entourage.[/quote]

The Journal of the International Association of Tibetan Studies (JIATS) mentions this edition of Fazun’s sNgags Rim Chen Mo translation:

Mizong zidi guanglun. 1939. Reprint, Shanghai: Shanghai Foxue shuju, 1996.

thlib.org/collections/texts/ … tuttle/c3/#ixzz1syAnQx87

In Tibetan Buddhists in the Making of Modern China by Gray Tuttle, this same 1939 translation is referenced, with the Chinese title given as Mizong zidi guanglun, as above, the English as Vast Treatise on the Graduated Esoteric Path, and the original Tibetan as sNgags Rim Chen Mo.

I can find no reference so far to a 1986 edition by Wondrous Favor Publishing Co., other than in the 12-year-olds-in-tantra scandal threads. Buddhism - would you be willing to provide a scan or photocopy of the page in question?

557

[quote=“SauLan”]Buddhism, I’m having a hard time finding this book (and publishing company); do you think you could scan page 376? Or if you could photocopy it, I would send payment for copying costs, postage, etc.

You have said this page contains a passage about 12 year old girls being used in tantra; I think it’s very important to look at this original page by Fazun.

Fazun passed away in 1980, but the book was published in 1986; do you know who it was that was responsible for publishing his translation at that time? [/quote]

Buddhism, I’m having a hard time finding this book (and publishing company); do you think you could scan page 376? Or if you could photocopy it, I would send payment for copying costs, postage, etc.

You have said this page contains a passage about 12 year old girls being used in tantra; I think it’s very important to look at this original page by Fazun.
[/quote]
SauLan, I do apologize for my belated reply; I don’t daily visit the website.
I gave you my answer on the other thread alrady, and I will manage to copy the page you requested for.

Fazun was a monk and did study and stay in Tibet for several years. His translation quality is no problem; it’s indeed Tsongkhapa’s teaching, the same concept can be found in the teachings on Samatha and Vipassana (Tranquility and Insight) 止觀 in the second half of another one of Tsongkhapa’s books, The Great Treatise on the Stages of the Path to Enlightenment (Lam rim ‘bring ba); however, the use of obscure and esoteric terms makes it difficult for the non-initiated to understand.

Just to share my viewpoint with you and thank you for your interest.

558

.[quote=“SauLan”][quote=“Buddhism”]Tsongkhapa, Extended Treatise on the Progression of the Esoteric Path, translated into Chinese by dharma-master Fazun, Wondrous Favor Publishing Co., 1986, p.376[/quote]

Buddhism, I’m having a hard time finding this book (and publishing company); do you think you could scan page 376? Or if you could photocopy it, I would send payment for copying costs, postage, etc.

You have said this page contains a passage about 12 year old girls being used in tantra; I think it’s very important to look at this original page by Fazun.
[/quote]
SauLan, my reples to your request,

  1. I have scanned and copied the pages you requested for (with helps from my shoolmates); apart from the p. 376, I have also copied p. 399-400 for your reference to show the consistency of the contents that “In the latter stage of the third empowerment, which is transmitted to enable the disciple to expound the sutras, the teacher and the nine female consorts, aged from 12 to 20, attain the state all together…”(Tsongkhapa, Extended Treatise on the Progression of the Esoteric Path, translated into Chinese by dharma-master Fazun, Wondrous Favor Publishing Co., 1986, p.399-400.) 妙吉祥出版社

  2. There are other publishers for the same book, (I have copies the texts of the first two books)
    ISBN 957-8231-15-6 1999 Universe 大千出版社 (p. 323 & p. 343)
    ISBN 957-8926-13-8 1996 蓮魁出版社 (p. 302 & p. 322)
    ISBN 978-957-17-1626-8 2008 新文豐出版股份有限公司 (p. 302)

I hereby give you a website where you can order a book if you wish.
ddc.com.tw/PrtShow.asp?Serie … &CommId=92

  1. If you like, you can send a PM to the adm. of Forumosa with your post address, I can mail you the three sets of copies with marks on them; I have compared the texts regarding the “12 years old” girls in these books, they are written the same way all right.

  2. Please see the attached pdf and thank you for your patience and interests. As Zhengjue’s work is done by all volunteers, there is not any cost involved; you do not have to pay anything.

lilychao.sg1006.myweb.hinet.net/pdf/20120502.pdf

559

Buddhism, thank you for all this work, and my apologies with the delay getting back to you. I will read through these and offer some comments. I really appreciate your effort.

It seems that the “page 376” you have scanned comes from a book published in 1975, though? The scan here shows 中華民國七十五年 on the book’s intro page (the page just before p. 376). I had thought that “page 376” referred to the Wondrous Favor Publishing Company edition from 1986?

560

I also found this commentary on the publications - is it true that the 1986 Wondrous Favor edition was never for sale (or is it just out of print?)

All the references I have found seem to note this:

此書中文本，係法尊法師譯於1939年，印順法師潤色。此書在台灣有兩家出版社印行：一者為妙吉祥出版社，台北市，1986年印行，非賣品，此即平實居士所引用之版本；二者為文殊出版社，台北市，1988年印行，定價新台幣300元。其中「文殊版」有現代的標點符號和分段，較便於閱讀，故依「文殊版」打字製作網頁版；另外，為了便於讀者查索《狂密與真密》的引用處，同時標示「妙吉祥版」之頁碼，其格式為(000)。然而為避免影響網路查索的功能，標示頁碼之處，係放在段落或標點符號後面，與實際分頁處稍有差異。