Tonal spelling?
- Best thing since sliced bread
- Doesnât help me
- Chinese has tones?
0
voters
Mod note: Tonally Orthographic Pinyin (TOP) is explained in a post by Dragonbones further below.
How do you feel about it?
I guess itâs good if you canât remember tones. Never really thought about it. There are only 4âŚ
I always thought that it made a lot of sense. But it really isnât practical as it is not used in the real world. I think it only aids in forcing you to remember the tones when learning new words, but is it really that hard to force yourself to think of the tone marks in Pinyin as part of the spelling?
What do you mean by âtonal spellingâ? Could you give an example?
The best-known tonal spelling system for Mandarin is Gwoyeu Romatzyh. For an example of something written in this, see Huendih Duendih (Humpty Dumpty).
While I admire the system on an intellectual level, give me Hanyu Pinyin any day.
Ironladyâs Tonally Orthographic Pinyin (TOP) is the system I use, and I find it beneficial in aiding tone retention from vocabulary flashcards, in particular:
Sure itâs ugly, but I only use it for my own reference, so it doesnât matter much. It has the added benefit of being easier to type than tone-marked pinyin without resorting to Dimsum or extended-keyboard messing around.
Of course you can teach yourself to do that - but I want the most efficient way to learn. I used tone-marked pinyin for eighteen months before switching to TOP and I reckon the change has doubled my retention speed. Perhaps it because growing up as an English speaker any squiggles over letters can usually be ignored, whereas capital letters are alerting you to something important. Maybe this system wonât work for everyone, but it does for me. 
An alternative system that uses tonal spelling is Gwoyeu Romatzyh, but I donât know that anyone still uses this except Taiwanâs long-distance bus companies.
EDIT: I see Cranky beat me to the punch on Gwoyeu Romatzyh.
Itâs when you vary the spelling of the word to include tonal info (rather than marking tones atop with diacriticals or afterward with numerals), such that the tones 1-4 are âa ar aa ahâ respectively for the sound âaâ, and so on; i.e., the ârâ means 2nd tone rather than an ârâ sound, etcâŚ
Have a look at the excellent pinyin.info/romanization/gwoyeu_ ⌠basic.html.
Itâs a horrible, horrible system â cumbersome in extremis.
EDIT: Iâm referring to Gwoyeu Romatzyh. Actually, Ironladyâs TOP isnât half bad. Those having real troubles associating the tones with the written romanized syllables may want to try it. Iâve not used it, as I became accustomed to HYPY long, long ago.
EDIT: Iâve not found a good link here explaining TOP so Iâm posting this here for reference:
TOP is a system developed by Ironlady in 1995 which varies the capitalization to represent tones. The key is that the pattern formed by the capitalization VISUALLY represents the pitch modulation of the tones.
[quote="ironlady"]FIRST TONES ARE WRITTEN IN ALL CAPS. YOUR VOICE IS HIGH.
seconD toneS arE writteN witH thE lasT letteR capitalizeD. that'S becausE youR voicE haS tO risE.
third tones are written all lower case. that's because the voice is low. (let's keep discussions on the true nature of third and half-third tones somewhere else -- this system is just to help us poor foreigners internalize tones! :slight_smile: )
Fourth Tone Has The First Letter Of Each Word Capitalized, Because Your Voice Starts High And Then Falls Downward.
So, to write the phrase âwo3 mei3tian1 lian4xi2 han4yu3â you would write:
wo meiTIAN LianxI Hanyu[/quote]
I asked because there are different interpretations of âtonal spellingâ - both the dreadful Gwoyeu Romatzyh and Ironladyâs fine TOP system popped into my mind, so I couldnât cast my vote.
The OP may have intended another meaning, such as spelling by adding a number afterwards (my preference for online use), using diacritics (my preference for printed material, but I would not consider it âtonal spellingâ), or even tacking on a consonant like âbâ or âzâ on the end (as in the Zhuang or Hmong languages - a system I donât like). The OP posted the question without clarification or example, which is why I needed to ask.
Hereâs my evaluation:
Diacritics; numbers; TOP: 
Zhuang/Hmong-style tonal spelling; Gwoyeu Romatzyh: :raspberry:
Also, Tongyong-style diacritics (first tone unmarked): :raspberry:
Buttercup Posted:
ChouDoufu Posted:
Yes. I have a very bad ear for tones. Even after 3 years of chinese, I donât quite âgetâ them. They seem random, and random stuff is the hardest to learn.
In fact my pronunciation and tones are very good, but only through âblindâ imitation of natives. A teacher at shida who thought my pronunciation was pretty good once tested me on pinyin by having me write down the tones of different words as she spoke them aloud. To her shock, I couldnât do it at all!
I think this is pretty commonâŚ
Anyway, I think one reason for my problem is that for me, tones are something âtacked onâ to what âreally matters.â This is a bad mental habit that traditional âsyllable plus tonal markerâ pinyin reinforces and integrated tonal spelling (i hope) may go some way toward correcting.
Oh yeah, and I totally agree that tonal spelling should not be used for signage or communicating with foreigners. itâs strictly a learning tool.
[quote=âbeautifulspamâ]Buttercup Posted:
I have a very bad ear for tones. In fact my pronunciation and tones are very good, but only through âblindâ imitation of natives.
Anyway, I think one reason for my problem is that for me, tones are something âtacked onâ to what âreally matters.â This is a bad mental habit that traditional âsyllable plus tonal markerâ Pinyin reinforces and integrated tonal spelling (i hope) may go some way toward correcting.
Oh yeah, and I totally agree that tonal spelling should not be used for signage or communicating with foreigners. itâs strictly a learning tool.[/quote]
That, in a nutshell is the argument for tonal spelling, where the tones are represented by different spellings, rather than diacritical marks. I do think that it may aid many foreign learners memorize the proper pronunciation. But you also raise a good point that you learn the tones through imitation. I also find that when I try to think to hard about the proper tones, I sound very stilted. You really have to practice on phrases to get anywhere near decent pronunciation. At least that is what Iâm finding. On problem that I have with a lot of tonal spelling is that it doesnât really capture tone changes (e.g. two third-tone words in a row). Perhaps you are supposed to change the tone mark in such a situation in Pinyin, I donât know, but that isnât the case in the texts Iâve seen. You just need to remember the rule.
What do tonal spelling systems do about these tone changes? I would think they can really change the spelling to account for changed pronunciation as that could be mistaken for a different word.
As for using tonal spelling only as a learning tool, I guess that makes sense for Chinese as your ultimate goal it to read and write with characters instead of romanization. An interesting hypothetical question is if you were to replace characters with a phonetic system, would tonal spelling be better than using diacrital marks from the perspective of native speakers? I would think that I would not make a difference in terms of memorizing the tones since native speakers would grow up with the tones and would not suffer from the problem many foreign learners have of ignoring the diacritical marks. Yet, tonal spelling may have advantages in terms of typing speed (albeit a minor one).
I disagree about not using phonetic spelling or diacritical marks on signs. Why not use tone marks when using Pinyin on signs? Perhaps others on the board familiar with other languages that use diacritical marks (for tones, vowel sounds, or whatever else they are used for) can remark on whether those are used on signage in the countries where the languages are used.
As for using phonetic spelling as another Chinese language learning tool, I really canât see that providing me with any advantage. I feel like Iâd be wasting my time learning yet another romanization system and one that is would have very little support in any Chinese teaching environment or in Chinese language learning materials. Iâve already learned Pinyin as that is the most common system used for language instruction. It is used on signs through mainland China and increasingly in Taiwan. Also, it is used as an actually alternative written form of Chinese. There are books and materials in Pinyin printed for minorities in China, for example (or so Iâve heard).
I also learned zhu ying fu hao because that is a common system used in Taiwan and Taiwanese children use it to aid in learning to read characters. There are a lot of materials that use it which I can use to practice reading. It is also very useful for using electronic dictionaries and inputing Chinese characters in cell phones. I suppose in mainland China you could use Pinyin for phones and such, but Iâm in Taiwan and most native speakers in Taiwan use zhu ying fu hao for inputting characters into computers, cell phones, and the like.
What practical use is there in me learning yet a third system? If improving my pronunciation is the point, it think my time would be better spent working with a native speaker on reading phrases and passages.
I think youâre right. However, TOP, which I use, is not really a different system. It is Hanyu Pinyin, but instead of using tone marks to represent tones, it uses combinations of upper and lower case letters. As a bonus the contours of the word written out resemble the tone itself, if you imagine upper case as being high pitch and lower case being low pitch:
1st: MA, SHANG, QUN
2nd: mA, shanG, quN
3rd: ma, shang, qun
4th: Ma, Shang, Qun
By the way, I feel that the conventional picture of the third tone as a dipping tone is not really telling the whole story - in many cases in regular it is simply a low sustained tone (which TOP reinforces).
The fifth tone in TOP is represented by an asterisk after the syllable - thusly: ma*
The only deviation from normal Hanyu Pinyin spelling is when the HP syllable is a single letter (a, e, o), in which case the letter is doubled (so Ä becomes AA).
So it ainât about learning a new system. Learning languages is a personal thing, and just because this works for me, doesnât mean itâll work for everyone. But itâs worth thinking about if it can help (and God knows people learning Mandarin need all the help they can get).
Iâd say once again though, that this may help tone retention (remembering what tone a given word is), but wonât help correct your pronunciation if youâre saying your second tones wrong or canât get the âzhâ sound right.
Iâve often thought that the future âphoneticizationâ of written Chinese if it ever occurs will take the form of a 400-character syllabary arrived at by trimming the written language down to 400 basic âcharacters,â each representing a single phoneme. Dragonbones, Ironlady, does this sound at all likely to you in some distant future, or is it but phantom of my overheated little brain?
Diacrits wouldnât make any difference, but they wouldnât be particularly helpful either. What I meant, was that confusing, convoluted tonal spelling systems shouldnt be used on signs because they take time to learn and needlessly confuse tourists (and locals.)
[quote]As for using phonetic spelling as another Chinese language learning tool, I really canât see that providing me with any advantageâŚ.What practical use is there in me learning yet a third system? If improving my pronunciation is the point, it think my time would be better spent working with a native speaker on reading phrases and passages.
[/quote][/quote]
a slow learner who arleady knows hanyu pinyin you can learn Ironladyâs TOP system in about 120 seconds. Thatâs part of what makes it so great. I used it to take notes today in class, and not only did my tones improve but I lost 50 pounds and increased my sex appeal by 23%.
Good job IronLady
The strength of Ironladyâs TOP system is its simplicity. 
Thanks for explaining the TOP system to me. Actually, I like it a lot. Itâd be kind of ugly to read as writing system; sentences would be difficult to distinguish and the like. But as a learning tool to use on flash cards, taking notes on new words and phrases, etc. It is a great idea.
Problem is that all of the tools that I have (software, pre-printed flash cards, books) all use Pinyin and/or Zhuyingfuhao. So, I really wouldnât get much use from it other than when making my own flash cards. I guess I could re-write the TOP system next to all Pinyin. Since it is so easy (heck, I learned it in the time it tool to read Taffyâs post), Iâll try it for a week and see if I feel it is helping.
You mean like this? (From the chapter on Chinese in DeFrancisâs Visible Speech: The Diverse Oneness of Writing Systems.)
Why would there be further phoneticization of written Chinese? Literacy rates are quite high everywhere in the Chinese-speaking world. Thatâs a solution to a non-existent problem.
âWell, it would help non-native speakers learn the language.â True, but then why donât we totally revamp the English language to make it easier for non-native speakers? Eliminate tenses, conjugation, completely consistent phonetic spellings, etc.
That being said, I wish I had some sort of system of tonal spelling when I first began Chinese. Either Ironladyâs system or a color coded system, where I highlighted each first tone character as pink, each second tone character as blue, etc. Would have saved me a lot of grief.
I strongly disagree. The problem might appear to be non-existent because people generally simply repeat the literacy claims put out by Beijing, which are (1) inflated, (2) based on incorrect assumptions, and (3) set unrealistically low.
Iâd be very surprised if even 20 percent of Chinaâs population could take a pen in hand and, unaided (by software, a dictionary, or other means) correctly write out the Mandarin equivalent in Hanzi of âLook at the purple butterfly!â
Or even just âHoney, I forgot my keys.â
Tradition, homophones, and the phenomenal burden this would create for modern readers who want to go back and read a vast treasury of older material make such a prospect highly unlikely. Iâd suggest a cold shower. 
Dragonbones, I donât buy the homophones argument. A Chinese character dictionary is more like a syllabary. Most characters are are used in multisyllabic words. When you look at actual words, rather than characters, the number of homophones in Chinese, while greater than English, are not so high as many people have been led to believe. The Pinyin.info site contains some excellent readings about this and other Chinese language myths.
Your other two points, however, are well taken. If the United States wonât even adopt the metric system, I canât imagine itâll be easy to get China to replace their characters with romanization. There is probably a better change of English becoming an official second language of China than characters being done away with. The communists missed their chance and settled for a poor compromise: abbreviated characters while at the same time curtailing English language instruction for a generation. Taiwan has kept the traditional characters, but is on its way towards making English a second language, a la Singapore.
I would be interested in reading any recent studies of Singaporean Chinese writing ability. Has the adoption of English as an official language had any negative effect on the average Singaporeanâs use of Chinese? One friend of mine from Singapore once complained that many of his compatriots are not fluent in any language. Iâm sure this is an exaggeration, but I wonder where that sentiment comes from. I also wonder if youâll hear similar complaints about younger generations of Taiwanese.
A cousin-in-law of mine teaches Chinese for a National Entrance Exam cram school. He complains that Taiwanese high school studentsâ Chinese writing is atrocious. I do take his complaints with a grain of salt. I think the English writing ability of most American high school students is awful and I canât blame that on their adopting a foreign language. My cousin-in-law blames TV and the Internet for Taiwanese studentâs poor writing. But I believe that the Internet has done a lot to bring this generationâs youth back to reading and writing than my MTV generation, at least in the US. I donât see why it would be different in Taiwan.
On the other hand, I can hardly write in cursive script because I havenât had too since junior high school. Iâve done most of my writing on a computer since high school. Handwritten papers may be stressed more in Taiwan and China than the United States, but I would think that computer use will have an adverse affect on peopleâs ability to correctly write characters. Again, itâd be interesting to read any research on this.
Dunno if thereâs any actual research on this, but primary school teachers complain about it constantly, and they do blame technology (MSN messenger and word processors)