Traffic Accident -- I'm in trouble

quote:
Originally posted by wolf_reinhold: Finally, don't go to dinner with them. Sounds like they sense that you may be starting to slip off the hook and want to butter you up for another try at a shake-down. Dining with them serves no purpose. Remain aloof.
Excellent advice. I completely agree.

Agreed: don’t go to dinner with them. If you do, take a lawyer! They will eventually just try to give you a lot of pressure and make you feel really guilty. If you don’t behave appropriately with your boss there, one or both of you will lose face, which isn’t ideal either.

Get the license yet? if not, do it! no time like the present.

Good luck!

quote:
Originally posted by nir: I haven't heard any news from their side, other than they called my boss to invite us for dinner over the weekend... What the?

If you do accept and they take you to a Japanese seafood restaurant…for God’s sake avoid the Fugu Fish!

http://www.destroy-all-monsters.com/fugu.shtml
http://www.cygnus.uwa.edu.au/~mccormax/japan/fugu.html
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/scatter_the_mud/articles/fuguchef.htm

Does anyone know, if I skip town, can this follow me to Canada?

Of course, committing a crime (assuming that a court may later proscecute you without being actually present) and fleeing to your home country does not protect you. Pending agreements between those countries of course.

As well I wouldn’t go for dinner, I had a similar situation in Malaysia (the other party clearly at fault) and was indirectly threatened with physicial … (what’s the correct word?) … “damage”.
As well they could see it as your acknowledgement of being at fault.

Geez - what a predicament !!

Why don’t you just email Richard Hartzell (The board moderator ) and discuss this with him in detail and in private - the ‘help’ on here is non-legal (taking nothing away from anyone who tried to help at all !!) - I just think it would be better since Mr Hartzell could be of much more help than mere speculations or conjecture you’ll find dwelling on here.

Make a small offer. If they refuse, take O’Brian’s advice, go back to Canada, change your name (surname) and return about a year later. If this goes to court and the court decides there is a risk of flight, they might remand you in custody or retain your passport. How much is staying in Taiwan worth to you emotionally and finacially ?

I’m no legal expert, but I agree with most of the other posters. Whatever you do at each stage, play for the maximum amount of time. “I need to think about that,” “I need to consult with my lawyer/authorities/bank/boss/whatever,” “I have to wait for your lawyer to issue me so-and-so.” Play the language barrier to YOUR advantage. Never bring along a Chinese-speaking friend.
Before you know it, this stuff will have blown over and all be forgotten. You or he will probably have more pressing matters to attend to in a year’s time (if he’s such a lousy driver, he will probably have another accident to sort out.)
The longer you stretch this out, the more costly it will be for the one throwing money at lawyers.
Cooperate by all means, but give them nothing they ask for. And if you do have to give, give it as late as possible, and with a fake smile. It works in the Taiwanese way of things, and it should work for you too.
Lastly, remember you’re in a country where known criminals can run for president (i.e. Soong), so expect the unexpected. Beware of retaliatory action outside the law. Keep a low profile, pretend to cooperate, but plan your exit.

quote[quote] Of course, committing a crime (assuming that a court may later proscecute you without being actually present) and fleeing to your home country does not protect you. [/quote] Wait a minute now. Let's not scare the poor girl into fleeing the country needlessly. As far as I can work out, there is no criminal case pending against her. It sounds like there is a very limited chance for the Chinese fellow to even file a civil suit. So why would anyone be advising a person in such a manner? This is a minor traffic accident; this does not fall even within radar distance of a incident worth considering leaving the country over. No crime has been committed.

Please re-read my posting.
I don’t want to scare her and I didn’t say she should flee the country, I said she should stay and sort it out first as she suggested running away:

quote[quote]Does anyone know, if I skip town, can this follow me to Canada?[/quote]

If this goes to court you may be found guilty and subjected to pay compensation.
Now assuming you have actually fled the country before I think this could get more serious than that (depends on how persistent the other party is) and that may follow you - even to Canada.

This is a minor traffic accident; this does not fall even within radar distance of a incident worth considering leaving the country over. No crime has been committed.

This is exactly what I wanted to say. No crime has been committed yet and surely it’s not going there unless you start running …

To be honest with you R, there is no way that a Taiwan person would seek legal redress from a Canadian who had gone back to her country over a traffic accident (unless there was manslaughter involved). The legal fees alone would outweigh any compensation they could hope to get.
I have a bit of first-hand knowledge on this sort of thing (both criminal and civil here in Taiwan) and I think that the advice here has been mostly solid. Unfortunately, this is the sort of thing that can ruin your stay and keep you up nights.
Stick to your guns; things will sort themselves out.

Nothing new has happened yet. I haven’t paid anyone any money and I haven’t been thrown in jail. I haven’t run anywhere, either. However, all of your posts are very supportive and are helping me get much needed sleep at night. Every comment helps.

I’m delaying the process as much as possible right now while gathering as much information as possible about the other driver. I also have a shiny new driver’s license.

quote:
Originally posted by wolf_reinhold: I have a bit of first-hand knowledge on this sort of thing (both criminal and civil here in Taiwan) and I think that the advice here has been mostly solid.
That's right, Wolf - the KMT running dog - is still wading through legal muck after "accidentally" hitting Chen Shuibian's wife with a rented truck in the 80's, then backing up and hitting her again. Oops! [img]images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img] [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

You’ve gone too far, Chairman Maoman!
Next you’ll be saying that I told Lien Chan to push his wife down the stairs!

Hi Nir,
A couple of points.

The helmet question is obvious. It is uncool to be (esp for a young man) seen riding your scooter with your helmet actually strapped up. I too live in Tainan, and I have even seen police without their helmet strapped up. (Remember, the true purpose of wearing a helmet is so you don’t get a fine, as long as you go to your temple, you will never need actually to use your helmet in accident!) Sure he had it sitting on his head before impact.

Nir, as far as fault goes this is my assessment -you were conducting an accepted (not strictly legal) road maneuver used daily by almost every person in this country, including taxis and police. Your reckless mate was traveling at the speed of a lunatic, without his lights on (a common suicidal practice), at the least. At the slow speed you say you were traveling, it would have made no difference if you were stationary, he would have still hit you like a thunderbolt (were you stationary at the actual time/point of impact?).

This guy is 95% at fault, and everybody knows it including his parents. The best form of defense is attack, that’s what they’re using, and its what you should use.

Set out the real situation (complete with witnesses statements), and respectfully demand that they pay you for the damage to your scooter. No need to get it translated (give them some of their own intimidation back), they will probably use your boss to help them translate anyway.

Let them know you are sorry that their son hurt himself, but you are also a victim of his recklessness.

I have read in a previous article that police view lack of a license irrelevant to the fault of an accident, but you may incur a small fine. Moderator Hartzell may correct me on this.

Remember, reality and fairness has little to do with the equation, here, these situations are driven largely by bullshit coercion and intimidation.

Take it easy.

No no no - that’s absolutely the worst thing to do now. The aggressive approach might have worked at the scene of the accident, but it’s way too late to go on the offensive now. If you start demanding money from THEM, they’ll instantly sense that you’re pulling a stunt to get out of paying, and they’ll dig their heels in even harder - or worse, they’ll double the price they’re asking for now. I’m afraid, from their point of view, they are the injured party. As people above have said, in an out-of-court settlement, the car pays the scooter and the guy who gets away with a few cuts and bruises pays the one in hospital. Trust me, they will become very belligerent if you go on the attack. You’re doing the right thing by being patient, waiting for the price to come down to something more reasonable, and in the meantime collecting as much evidence as you can in the event that it does go to court.

I’m not sure whether to start a new thread, but it’s so closely related to this, so here goes. Given the crowded and often chaotic conditions on the roads here, it’s probably true that if you drive in Taiwan you will be involved in an accident.
Most of us Lao Wai tend to look at legal responsibility in an accident as being a legal/black and white issue. It’s an international tendancy to escape from responsibility when that responsibility means paying money; and none have honed this skill as finely as the Taiwanese driver.
I’m still trying to get a grip on the post-accident negotiations and how they should work. It seems that the police are nothing more than neutral observers. It seems that in an accident the other party immediately blames you and wants you to pay.What to do in the case that you are actually guiltless and the other guy is at fault? (Yeah, I know! Everyone says this in an accident! Do we have to play the “Negotiating Game”? By this, I mean, blame everything on them, state a law that they broke and stay firm and stubborn? Should we play the, “Okay! I’ll see you in court!” card? Is court really costly? I’ve personally had friends that were definately NOT guilty of anything and the other party was definately the guilty one, but they still professed their innocence and demanded compensation! What are the proper (meaning legal) and what are the usual (meaning how do Taiwanese deal with this in actuality) ways to act in an accident?
Any sane thoughts will be appreciated.

I now realise that by stating that “Any sane comments are appreciated” I may have left you feeling that your right to free speech was limited. Well, let’s open this topic up for “other than sane” comments also! Hey, we are talking about Taiwan traffic, right!?

Last week, the representative the guy’s family used to negotiate a compensation amount with me called my school and threatened to go there and “do something…” if I didn’t pay 100K immediately.
If anyone remembers, the initial amount they were asking was 300K. Anyway, I didn’t really respond.
It seems also that my boss has alerted the family that I have a vacation coming up. She basically warned them, without asking my permission, that I may leave the country. I’ve been advised by a lawyer that it takes about 2 weeks to get a restraining order to prevent me from leaving the country. My boss must know this and it seems like she’s pretty much handed me over to these people.

Do not offer these people anything! Wait til this case either goes to court or the other party settles for motorcycle damages. Do not discuss this case with your employer, if the school really cared about your interests they would have paid the family off and solved this matter. Obviously tis is not the case!

In Taiwan, it’s the law that every Taiwanese citizen MUST have National Health Insurance (NHI). In fact, as soon as my baby was born this March, the hospital told us that we had to sign up for NHI within a few days of when the baby was born, otherwise we would be fined! In fact, even Taiwanese people who aren’t working must have NHI, even if they are not living with their parents. (If they are living with their parents, then they are covered by their parents’ NHI.) I’m sure of this because a few years ago, my only job was private tutoring, and my Taiwanese wife didn’t have a job, so we thought that since she didn’t have a job and wasn’t anyone’s dependent, she didn’t have to get NHI. Wrong! The NHI found out about her and she had to pay a huge fine in addition to all the NHI fees that hadn’t been paid in the past.

So what I’m saying is that the Taiwanese guy who was riding the scooter that crashed into you must have had NHI coverage. If he is still living with his parents, then his parents’ NHI will cover him. Or if he is living alone, then he will have NHI coverage from his company where he works. And even if he was living alone and not working, then he would still be required by law to have NHI.

And if he really doesn’t have NHI (which is highly unlikely), then that’s a crime which is much more serious than driving without a license, and still you would not be liable for any medical fees which would have been covered by NHI because not having NHI is his fault, not your fault.

(By the way, I’ve been in two accidents during the six years I’ve been in Taiwan, and I didn’t have a license either time, but the police didn’t care at all. The police only asked to see the registration card and insurance card for my car. They never asked whether I had a license! So don’t worry about not having a license. That’s beside the point.)

Getting back to the topic of NHI: You are not liable for paying his medical fees which are already covered under NHI. So the only fees you are liable for paying are his medical fees which are not already covered under NHI, which should be minimal. And if he paid extra to be in a private hospital room instead of a shared room, then that was his own decision, so you are not liable to pay for that, either.

Also, if the judge determines that both parties are equally at fault, then you only have to pay for half of his medical fees which were not covered by NHI and half of the cost for fixing his scooter, and then he also has to pay for half of your non-covered medical fees and half of what you paid to get your scooter fixed.

By the way, foreigners who do not have an ARC are exempt from NHI, as well as foreigners who have had an ARC for less than four months. But if you have had an ARC for more than four months, then you are required by law to have NHI coverage.

Mark