Trying to blame Chiang Kai-Shek for 2-28

Politics Taiwan Politics
41

Are you saying that the arriving mainlanders could communicate well with the Taiwanese at that time?

The Taiwanese couldn’t speak Mandarin at that time and there was a language barrier which led to more difficulties between the 2 groups. It was after the education system was here for a while that everyone could speak Mandarin, or at least Taiwan Mandarin.[/quote]

Sorry Betelnut, but Mr. Boogie is more or less right on this one. Many KMT officials, including Governor Chen Yi were educated in Japan and could speak directly to most people, if they wanted. Chen refused to speak Japanese on the grounds that it was not the national language. This is one of the factors that the conservative historians Lai, Meyers, and Hou lead to 228.

In addition, many KMT soldiers and refugees were from Fukien, which, as I am sure you know, the same local language is spoken.

Finally, it is widely accepted among Taiwanese historians such as Chou Wan-yao and confirmed in the popular writings of Peng Ming-min that initially, the Taiwanese were extremely excited about retrocession to the KMT government. There was significant pro-Chinese sentiment. While I can not say that CKS is to blame for 228, I can say that the KMT blew it and even in this informed and bilingual group here, there remains significant confusion about the events of that time.[/quote]

You know, I didn’t read the thread carefully enough to understand what the overall argument was about comparing the KMT and the Japanese, but I guess it was about the ability to communicate.

The issue of the officials using Japanese to communicate with the Taiwanese was not what I was referring to, and I didn’t think it was Mr_Boogie’s point in the post I was quoting. I thought he said that the mainlander and the Taiwanese are both Chinese so they could communicate better.

The issue of a language barrier is something that the green camp people taught me when I first got to Taiwan. Their point of view was that the KMT administration insisted on speaking Mandarin and using Mandarin for jobs like teachers so Taiwanese teachers lost their jobs to Mainlanders and such causing additional tension.

I don’t know what percentage of the civilians, officials, and soldiers came from Fujian or other parts of the mainland.

The fact that Chen-Yi could speak Japanese and Fukianese is one issue, and the fact that he insisted on speaking Mandarin in Taiwan to toe the line of the Republic of China is another.

But if you want to use these 2 arguments to generalize that the arriving KMT mainlanders could communciate well with the Taiwanese when they first got here, I can’t argue with you.

Every time I talk to Green people the issue of speaking Taiwanese versus Mandarin is one of the main resentments they have towards the KMT. That they couldn’t speak their native language in school. That the KMT insisted on Mandarin.

The issue of the language difference is a big issue with the green camp supporters.

So when I first heard the argument that the arriving Chinese could communicate with the Chinese (Taiwanese) that were already here in Taiwan, I was surprised.

The language barrier still feels like an issue today. There are lots of Taiwanese people I meet in Southern Taiwan and sometimes in green areas in Taipei County that either don’t speak Mandarin very well, or prefer not to speak it at all and get irritated when you try to speak Mandarin to them.

My friend’s grandmother disliked Mainlanders at that time because she couldn’t understand what the hell they were speaking.

So I’m just using my common sense experience in trying to understand the past as well as the green camp’s point of view that there was a language barrier between the arriving mainlanders and the Taiwanese.

If you have a specific figure to quote on the how many soldiers were from Fujian could thus speak the same dialect if they chose to do so, then please let me know. But please tell me if it was the norm or not for soldiers and policemen to communicate with the native Taiwanese in their own dialect or not at that time. I’m open to many points of view.

I think we’re talking about 2 different things. I was expressing the sentiment of the Taiwanese people and which is what I thought Mr_Boogie was also talking about, and you’re referring to the administration’s ability to communicate if they really wanted to, which would have been Japanese and/or Fukianese/Taiwanese. You’re saying I’m wrong, but I was not referring to the administration’s ability to communicate with the Taiwanese if they really wanted to.

Well, bad on them then. I don’t disagree with that point then. Maybe they should have treated Taiwan more as a special situation given the different background of the people than the mainland. They probably should have been more flexible.

42

-This describes the DPP and the TI faction quite accurately right now.[/quote]

Give. Me. A. Break.[/quote]

So instead of giving a fair interpretation of events and history. The TI administration decides to pin the entire 228 incident on a dead person.
Reminds me of the whole 319 incident…the dead guy did it.

The rioting on 228 was completely justified. The killing of WSR and various public servants by mobs were also justified.

You already got a break. Why do you think your posting in English on this topic. If the KMT and CKS were actually practicing genocide against the Taiwanese, as TI supporters like to claim, you think you’d be here?[/quote]

No matter what your opinion on TI, if you think that the DPP is comparable to CKS and his thugs in the mid 20th century, you’re more deluded than I thought.

43

I think that for most of the KMT soldiers that came to Taiwan, the fact that they were loosers was also very important as a measure of explaining bad relationships with locals. The KMT came to Taiwan to “prepare to take the mainland again” (as it was it’s politics and reason for the martial law) so this island was allways saw as a temporary place. And when you are in a temporary place, most of the times you don’t care about it. Add it to the “looser fact”, and you might explain why so many of these soldiers “could” (I am not saying they did, but it can be one reason) do more than what they were asked to. Also, if many of these soldiers were alone (no familly) in Taiwan, theyr stress level might have been very high. So if you add all these you have an explosive situation over here. But, this can explain only in a small level what happened. Of course, the way KMT dealed with it also could have aggravated even more the situation. So in the end, the fault goes 99% to the people in the government for badly taking care of the local population.

44

This never made any sense to me. The KMT was preparing to take back the mainland, not to take back the mainland and turn Taiwan back over to Japan. Taiwan wasn’t a “temporary” place, well, as far as setting up a provincial government was concerned. The first few years development probably didn’t take off because of the threat of imminent war – the same happened in mainland China. You don’t invest in things that would just get blown up. KMT didn’t see Taiwan as a “temporary” place, they saw it as a potential war zone.

45

The KMT had many problems following retrocession. Most importantly, they were fighting a losing war with the CCP. Taiwan was seen as a quick and cheap source of resources with which to fight the Communists. It was this attitude that ultimately led to 228.

In addition, many Taiwanese had actually prepared to fight in the Japanese army. Between Feb 1 and March 10 in 1941, more than 14% of all Taiwanese males applied to join the Japanese army volunteer training program. Programs run for the Japanese navy volunteers were just as successful. While we hear mostly about Taiwanese women forced to be comfort women, in fact, more than 5000 young women volunteered to be war time nurses in the Japanese military. Many of the Japanese soldiers that you hear about unwilling to surrender following Emperor Hirohito’s surrender speech on August 15 were actually Taiwanese.

When the KMT army arrived here, regardless of how enthusiastic the Taiwanese may have been about exploring their new found Chineseness, what they found was a place that looked like it

46

That’s only one side of situation. The Formosans at the time also felt that they were entitled to key positions in local government and affairs in a wartime ROC government. They saw themselves as above the Chinese, even though, their side lost the conflict against the Chinese.

If you read the original demands the Formosan intellects, they were not interested in helping the KMT route out the CCP on the mainland. They were more interested in wrestling control of Taiwan province from the interm government at the time.

Even though their untimely deaths which followed was sad. It was not unexpected. No war time government is going to tolerate a group trying to wrestle control of a territory. Political assassination is common in history for especially for places like Taiwan during the transition where a new government has to establish itself quickly.

The group(s) on Taiwan had already demostrated they were willing to use violence and deadly force against the WSR civilians and public servants alike. Their goals were counter to the greater goal of the KMT to route the CCP from the mainland.

To believe the events of 228 and White Terror that followed could have been mitigated is naive. Or to make unfair interpretation to why each side behaved the way they did is also pointless.

What I do disagree with is how the TI supporters love using 228 as a political rallying call. It is utter nonsense, because it boils down to the Japanese were justified in collecting tobacco tax, but the KMT is unjustifed in collecting the same tax. How insane is that.

47

So they deserved it. Aren’t you being a bit harsh?

48

More like what other outcome were people expecting.

In the initial stages to establishing a government the Japanese were just as harsh if not more so on any form of resistance.

Why would one expect the KMT or any other government to behave any differently?

Look throughout history. First Emporer of China, slaughter a thousand scholars that resisted a unified written language.

Look to USA and their various colonial projects. Puerto Rico, Hawaii, Philippines, and Iraq all went through the necessary process of bloodshed to abolish resistance in the populace, before the “human rights” could be delivered to the general populace.

Whether it be East, West, democracy, or dictatorship it is always the same when a new government is established after a war. The remaining resistance is slaughtered.

So not “they deserved it” as you put, more like it was the only plausible outcome if ROC was to survive at the time.

49

2/28 is DPP’s excuse for TI. That’s their only arsenal. A very weak justification for TI, along with the immature thinking “They made us speak Mandarin”.

Sounds like a bunch of crybabies to me.

But do these TI supporters ever think about the tangible benefits of TI, if any? Is the status quo going to change much by trying to gain 100 countries’ diplomatic recognition?

I disagree with the tactics the KMT used to quell political dissent in Taiwan. However that was not any different from Park Chung Hee’s government in South Korea during the 60’s and 70’s. Well were the South Koreans going to declare independence from Park Chung Hee? Were the mainland Chinese going to declare independence from Beijing after 6/4?

KMT was politically repressive, no doubt. But there needs to be an awareness of why the KMT acted the way it did. Mao was constantly threatening Taiwan, and the threat of communist takeover of Taiwan was real. Had Taiwan been politically unstable, it would have created an environment that would make it easier for Mao to exploit, and as a result, subjugate Taiwan with communist rule.

A stable political environment allowed the KMT to concentrate on economic development in Taiwan, which helped Taiwan become one of the Four Economic Tigers by the end of the 70’s.

Taiwanese should not complain. They are lucky not to experience the Great Leap Forward in the 1950’s, nor the Cultural Revolution in the 1960’s. Instead, they experienced marvelous wealth through the land reform program that the KMT initiated. As land values and stock shares rose over time, many Taiwanese grew very wealthy and saw an increase in their living standards.

KMT also supported SME’s, giving them tax incentives. CKS’s son promoted Taiwanese in his government and legalized opposition political parties. LTH would be in complete political oblivion today had it not been for Chiang Ching-kuo.

Stable political environment --> environment conducive to economic progress --> societal affluence --> environment ripe for political liberalization. This was CKS and KMT’s line of thinking. And it worked.

50

ac_dropout,
It appears to me that you’re now admitting that the KMT army came to Taiwan and slaughtered people and that the reason for this was that given the behaviour of the colonials, “what else can you expect?” So you no longer disagree that a criminal act was committed? Are you arguing that it’s OK to massacre locals when a colony is established? After that last post, I’m a little confused about what you think happened on 228.

To be fair, that’s the argument I’m making, but I still think it was a criminal act.

51

[quote=“ac_dropout”]More like what other outcome were people expecting.

In the initial stages to establishing a government the Japanese were just as harsh if not more so on any form of resistance.

Why would one expect the KMT or any other government to behave any differently?[/quote]

Did the DPP slaughter its KMT opposition when Chen was elected in 2000? Have Lien Chan, Ma or Song been sent to Green Island?

52

One presumes reztrop, that you’ve undertaken a careful evaluation of the situation in China and Taiwan and found such overt similarities that there can simply be no other justification for an independent Taiwan than linguistics.

Oh I see, you’re an apologist for repressive regimes. Hell, there’s no room for namby pamby ideals like demomcracy when there’s money to be made.

Have you been to Singapore? You might find it very much to your taste. They think quite the same way there. Unfortunately the vast majority in Taiwan are less inclined to scuttle the political acheivements of the past 15 odd years and embrace mumsy with such warm conviction. Best leave them to it, eh?

Now givern your logic, I suppose when the inevitable happens and China takes over Taiwan, a bit of repression and the offing of sticky roadblocks to a smooth transition can be expected? Bully for you. Call me squeamish if you will but I’m reluctant to applaud your enlightened outlook.

HG

53

Also, how much of this economical development was becuase of external aid? Or was only the KMT capacity that worked over here?

And isn’t South Korea more economically developped than Taiwan now? I guess that, comparing the SK, KMT didn’t do such a great job after all. And don’t forget theyr biggest achievement which was to be kicked out of the UN.

And for all those who justify killing people with economic evolution, just one question: Can we kill you to justify our wealth?

54

You’ve got to give AC credit for being willing to admit it. Although it does seem that increasingly the Pan-Blue are being forced to speak out in public about what their real agenda is. It’s like mr boogie’s or hexuan’s comments about Ma Ying Jeou’s statements on the BBC. They don’t seem to mind Ma implying that white people can’t understand what the KMT really want to do, and AC finds it acceptable that the KMT needed to kill tens of thousands to stabilize their rule and produce economic development. The argument itself is absolute crap, but AC does find it acceptable.

What surprises me is why he would even bother disagreeing with Chen Yi-shen’s report on who’s responsible for 228. Who cares if CKS or the KMT were responsible? It was what was needed.

55

But it is funny how KMT flags the economical development by saying it was because of KMT, not the government, but when speaking about the 228 or all the rest, they say it was the government, not KMT…

56

[quote=“ScottSommers”]ac_dropout,
It appears to me that you’re now admitting that the KMT army came to Taiwan and slaughtered people and that the reason for this was that given the behaviour of the colonials, “what else can you expect?” So you no longer disagree that a criminal act was committed? Are you arguing that it’s OK to massacre locals when a colony is established? After that last post, I’m a little confused about what you think happened on 228.

To be fair, that’s the argument I’m making, but I still think it was a criminal act.[/quote]

I don’t think that the KMT committed criminal acts. They were the government at the time. Governments are allow to suspend civil liberties and issue capital punishment. I think most TI supporters don’t understand the legal implication when they use terms like “colonizers.” You admit you are now colonial citizens of ROC at the time, subject to all relevant laws and authorities of ROC at the time.

So the only criminal on 228 was the old lady that refuse to pay tobacco tax on the cigerettes she was retailing to market. One could ask if the public servant in question had the authority to issue corporal punishment or use deadly force at the time? But that is not the issue of 228. If it was the officer would have been brought to a hearing and judgement would have been passed and that would be the end of it.

The other question around 228 is do the people have the right to a violent revolt and kill WSR in public due to their discontent with the KMT government? If they do have that right, then does the government have the right to use deadly force to restore order?

There are those TI supporters that believe the KMT were colonizers. So I ask them to compare them to the previous colonizers, the Japanese that they hold in high regard. If the Japanese were allow to kill ten of thousands of Taiwanese over the course of their rule to establish order, why not the KMT? If the Japanese never let a Taiwanese hold the highest office in Taiwan and are seen as benefactors to the island, why not hold the KMT in even higher regards for allowing just that to happen?

Why would the DPP need to do that? The KMT already did the difficult job of establishing order on Taiwan. The DPP did a few symbolic jestures to show they were in power. Like shut down a magazine and harrass a few TV stations. But the real tough job of routing out spies, foriegn collaborators, and fifth colums were done by CKS and CJG. By the time CSB got into office the greatest threat to Taiwan government was just petty corruption. But CSB took care of that problem, because he got rid of everyone that wasn’t in his party. :laughing:

57

Sure… thats the same thing Hitler and Stalin did too… not criminals at all no no no :loco: :loco: :loco:

58

AC, I’m just surprised. You seem like an educated guy, but you don’t appear to have heard of the terms ‘political prisoner’ or ‘war criminal’. Would you have been phoning up the Gestapo on your neighbors because it was illegal to harbour Jews in your house?

59

Okay then try to get any ROC official to face an international war tribuneral.

I recommend we start with LTH and CSB. Since they are only living Presidents left on Taiwan.

I guess that’s one way for ROC to get international exposure. I’m sure the PRC would even support this in the UN. A chance to grill and imprison TI politicians on an international stage under the guise of an apolitical war tribuneral.

60

Sure… thats the same thing Hitler and Stalin did too… not criminals at all no no no :loco: :loco: :loco:[/quote]

Really Hitler and Stalin were convicted of crimes?

You know in the Hip Hop community being a convict is a badge of honor. Not anyone can be a convict you know.