On another thread here there’s a discussion of a comedian who used terrible words towards a member of his audience. Regardless of whether the guy intended the insults or not, he’s offered an apology and asked people’s forgiveness.
What is the response? No. You are not forgiven.
A Reverend concerned with civil rights publicly refuses to accept the apology. The audience members refuse to accept the apology and plan to file a law suit. People on video forums discussing the incident refuse to accept the apology.
There was no murder. There was no violence. Nobody lost property. Yet, this is being deemed “unforgivable” by many people.
There was a man a couple thousand years ago who said some pretty profound things about forgiveness. He said love your enemies, bless those that intentionally harm you, and to forgive others who wrong you.
Some people call this man Lord. They say he is their Master.
Most others acknowledge these particular teachings as some of the wisest and most profound ever spoken. These are virtues to be emulated.
Hate is NOT comedic. Yet, I do understand that in moments of pssion (and prejudice) our true emotions tend to show themselves. To those of you who are not prejudiced in any way, raise your hand! Before you answer, ask yourself some important questions. Would you cringe if your son, daughter brought home a g/f or b/f from a different race/nationality/culture/country?
I was plased to see Sharpstien (sp) mention that even he was prejudiced and that we all have them. Learning to live within the norms of our society and culture is the key to understanding. Smart guy, he is.
[quote=“R. Daneel Olivaw”]On another thread here there’s a discussion of a comedian who used terrible words towards a member of his audience. Regardless of whether the guy intended the insults or not, he’s offered an apology and asked people’s forgiveness.
What is the response? No. You are not forgiven.
A Reverend concerned with civil rights puclically refuses to accept the apology. The audience members refuse to accept the apology and plan to file a law suit. People on video forums discussing the incident refuse to accept the apology.
There was no murder. There was no violence. Nobody lost property. Yet, this is being deemed “unforgivable” by many people.
There was a man a couple thousand years ago who said some pretty profound things about forgiveness. He said love your enemies, bless those that intentionally harm you, and to forgive others who wrong you.
Some people call this man Lord. They say he is their Master.
Most others acknowledge these particular teachings as some of the wisest and most profound ever spoken. These are virtues to be emulated.
Are we so far removed from these virtues?[/quote]
I think you make an excellent point. What is that saying? To err is human, forgiveness divine.
I forgive him. His outburst was a major screw-up. I’m sure he would not have said the things he did had he been in control of himself. And I don’t even know that Jesus guy.
[quote=“R. Daneel Olivaw”]On another thread here there’s a discussion of a comedian who used terrible words towards a member of his audience. Regardless of whether the guy intended the insults or not, he’s offered an apology and asked people’s forgiveness.
What is the response? No. You are not forgiven.
[/quote]
I think people don’t forgive him because they don’t believe he’s really sorry. I think in a moment of anger he lost it and revealed his true feelings. Saying sorry afterward is necessary for his career, so he’s doing it, but I can’t really believe he doesn’t really still have those prejudices.
Is that old ‘tester’ still going round? Honestly, I find it quite dated. I sincerely would not cringe in the slightest if my daughter brought home a girlfriend from a differeent race and culture or my son brought home a boyfriend from a different country. (Unless it was Scotland, of course.)
[quote=“R. Daneel Olivaw”]There was no murder. There was no violence. Nobody lost property. Yet, this is being deemed “unforgivable” by many people.[/quote]No murder. No physical violence. No lost property. Instead, the funny man hit low and hard. It was a demeaning, vicious denial of basic respect.
In theological language, it was a denial of “Thou,” an attempt to reduce another to a mere thing; a reduction to “It”.
What value do you place on the extension of basic personal respect?
After telling the parable of the Good Samaritan, Jesus asks which of those men on the road acted as a neighbour to the one who had been beaten and left for dead. The answer, of course, is the one who cared for him.
Was Richards a neighbour to anyone in that audience? Did he speak ‘Thou’ to them?
Who was wounded, the funny man, or the audience members? Who stands in the position of the man beaten and robbed?
Ministering to an innocent attacked is a fairly simple matter compared to ministering to one who wounds himself (which is how I see him; certainly, he is more an enemy to himself than to me). Seinfeld did good by extending a hand–not cover–to his friend; by helping him to stand and deliver an account of his actions. It’s no fault of Seinfeld’s that his friend’s account fell short; it’s no fault of ours that the account has been found wanting.
Richards owes those he wounded an apology. He wronged them; it’s in their hands to forgive, or not. After that, perhaps funny man owes everyone else an apology. Maybe. I don’t know. I don’t even know if that is even possible unless and until he comes to an understanding of his acts. I’ve been disappointed by this, but not wronged. I don’t feel he owes me an apology, and not having been struck, there is no need for me to turn the other cheek. Nor do I feel it necessary to throw stones.
Forgiveness does not mean forgetting. Forgiveness allows the wronged party to set aside the wrong–to unburden himself, and to unburden the guilty party, of the immaterial weight of it all. It does not excuse the guilty party from making whatever restitution can be had. Nor does it mean that we return to our previous estimation of the guilty party. I’ve no idea how he might find a way back to his better self, but a return to respectability is contingent on him working that out for himself.
I have no issue with forgiving people who do wrong. It’s a natural part of the healing process for everyone. I find, though, that forgiveness is expected too early after a wrong is committed and is often a cloak for dismissal and complacencey. Forgiveness should come at some point along the way, but it’s best to come at some later point in the process. People shouldn’t be able to do aweful things and get forgiven immediately and without consequence. It’s appropriate that Richards see the outrage that resulted from his action and it is also fitting that his career experience a momentary hic-up as a result of the offence he gave to so many. Action----> Consequences. Forgiveness is good and necessary, but equally so are accountability and just punishment.
I grew up in a 70% black community, I only had like 1 white friend the WHOLE time before I went to college, this is not an exageration. So yes, all my friends were black, and so were all the really mean racist people who picked on me EVERYday for being different in middle school.
If I were to get REALLY pissed off at some black guy I can see myself spewing out racist words, but the reason for it wouldn’t be racism, it would be because I want to hurt them, make them angry, and get them totally enraged. At the same time if I went back and told my friends about it, I don’t think they would care- in fact, I’ll discuss this with them and get their opinion.
But really I KNOW that non-racist people sometimes say racist things in a bad situation because they just wanna start stuff, thats how people are when they fight.
[quote=“Ian_Alexander”]Actually I think I know how he feels possibly.
I grew up in a 70% black community, I only had like 1 white friend the WHOLE time before I went to college, this is not an exageration. So yes, all my friends were black, and so were all the really mean racist people who picked on me EVERYday for being different in middle school.
If I were to get REALLY pissed off at some black guy I can see myself spewing out racist words, but the reason for it wouldn’t be racism, it would be because I want to hurt them, make them angry, and get them totally enraged. At the same time if I went back and told my friends about it, I don’t think they would care- in fact, I’ll discuss this with them and get their opinion.
But really I KNOW that non-racist people sometimes say racist things in a bad situation because they just wanna start stuff, thats how people are when they fight.[/quote]
:bravo: spot-on,i think we do the same.
i’ve seen disputes amongst family members,and things are said to hurt,not coz you mean them
[quote=“dablindfrog”][quote=“Ian_Alexander”]Actually I think I know how he feels possibly.
I grew up in a 70% black community, I only had like 1 white friend the WHOLE time before I went to college, this is not an exageration. So yes, all my friends were black, and so were all the really mean racist people who picked on me EVERYday for being different in middle school.
If I were to get REALLY pissed off at some black guy I can see myself spewing out racist words, but the reason for it wouldn’t be racism, it would be because I want to hurt them, make them angry, and get them totally enraged. At the same time if I went back and told my friends about it, I don’t think they would care- in fact, I’ll discuss this with them and get their opinion.
But really I KNOW that non-racist people sometimes say racist things in a bad situation because they just wanna start stuff, thats how people are when they fight.[/quote]
:bravo: spot-on,i think we do the same.
i’ve seen disputes amongst family members,and things are said to hurt,not because you mean them[/quote]
R. Daneel Olivaw -
An excellent posting.
Ian & dablindfrog have made replies that speak with equal eloquence.
My only addition is that a lot of people are using this incident to get their own 15 minutes of fame and a possible $$$ gain. Its not in their own interests to forgive and move forward. And that is a shame.
I cannot speak for what is truly in Mr. Richards heart. If he says he apologizes and asks forgiveness then why not let this happen?
as for forgiveness, is that mine to give? i must have missed the memo that put me so far up the moral ladder that judgement was now included in my job description. is there a pay raise that goes with this awesome responsibility? i don’t think i can handle it.
He says he is sorry. He says he’ll never make an outburst like that again. He says he will do some personal work.
We are assuming the worst about this guy. Assuming he is not sincere.
I think we should forgive those that wrong us whether or not they ask for forgiveness, and even if they don’t seem sincere.
Some crimes against us are incredible. Murder, rape, deep betrayal. I understand not being capable of forgiving someone who has commited such horrible acts. Yet, some people still manage to do so.
I’d say name-calling is never “UNFORGIVABLE”
I mean- its pretty infantile to get ur panties in a bunch over such a thing,
but at the same time if I was offended by someone I’d prolly stop supporting them.
[quote=“Jaboney”][quote=“R. Daneel Olivaw”]There was no murder. There was no violence. Nobody lost property. Yet, this is being deemed “unforgivable” by many people.[/quote]No murder. No physical violence. No lost property. Instead, the funny man hit low and hard. It was a demeaning, vicious denial of basic respect.
In theological language, it was a denial of “Thou,” an attempt to reduce another to a mere thing; a reduction to “It”.
What value do you place on the extension of basic personal respect?[/quote]
Much less than on life.
I’ve been insulted in much the same way on more than one occasion. I may not be black, and may not have ancestry that comes from slavery, but that doesn’t mean I can’t be insulted just as deeply.
So, yeah, he insulted the guy and offended him deeply.
Are you saying that this is anywhere near the same category of offence as rape, murder, or betrayal? You think this is something that should not be forgiven?
[quote]After telling the parable of the Good Samaritan, Jesus asks which of those men on the road acted as a neighbour to the one who had been beaten and left for dead. The answer, of course, is the one who cared for him.
Was Richards a neighbour to anyone in that audience? Did he speak ‘Thou’ to them?[/quote]
This isn’t about whether or not the comedian was wrong. That’s irrelevant to this discussion.
This is about the reaction of everyone to the guy’s mistake (ignoring arguments of intention or malice).
Here it’s a matter of charisma. The guy was emotional and tried to make a public apology. He fumbled it, and it didn’t sound “moving”. But the fact is that he made it to the public. (The individual, private apology is another matter.)
That is good to hear. Unfortunately, I see a lot of stone throwing. Not much on Forumosa, but on other discussion forums. That’s why I started this thread.
I agree.
Perhaps the public needs time to go through their emotions on this one before they can forgive. But from what I’ve read it seems that there are a lot of people who are saying “this can’t be forgiven” and “nothing he can do can make this right” when the offence is relatively minor compared with a lot of other things that are currently happening.
