There always has to be a conspiracy theory huh? We arranged for there to be trillions of dollars of damage to America to get oil prices reduced by 5 cents a gallon? Won’t even discuss the American lives lost since you seem to think that’s not a concern to us. Is it that we are trying to take over the Middle East? What happens to your theory when America does not take over the Middle East and does not get lower gas prices such as now? Then we lost trillions of dollars to gain what exactly? A distrust of people from the Middle East? Puh-leeze the American people have been distrustful of that region for decades already. Just answer me this…what exactly has America gained by this if it was a farce? We have only lost.
howzit, i had a look at the site, is there any solid alternatives to what they show didn’t happen (a big airplane hitting it isn’t likely if you follow their logic). This is the first time i’ve heard of planes vapourising. they’ve always broken up regardless of whether they’ve hit cities, buildings, mountains e.t.c.
straight after JFK was shot anybody suggesting that he was killed by his own country would have been lynched but now it’s accepted that it may be what happened.
the trillions that are being spent go straight into the american economy. it’s simple bussiness to keep money flowing and in this case it’s just public money now being channeled in huge quantities to american companies. joe public rarely sees a lot of benefit but politics and government has never been about the little man. it is about the big boys making and influencing decisions that benefit them.
“Rome is the mob, give them a spectacle and they’ll love him for it” from Gladiator, isn’t this what the Bush family does. smoke screens and diversion all on CNN.
no one else trusts their governments, so why do so many americans trust theirs?
cheers
Secretly I believe you are an axe murderer. I have no proof but nevertheless it is my belief. I am entitled to this belief merely because I say so. Haven’t other people been accused of axe murdering in the past, seemed innocent but now we are not 100% positive? Exactly. You are an axe murderer.
Want to know why we trust our government? Because you could become incredibly wealthy by proving them to be dishonest, cheating, and HUGE bucks to those who can prove scandal. We reward people on quite the regular basis for uncovering suspicious behavior. Unlike China were no one can trust the government due to prison terms being so en vogue for dissidants.
and…what a original concept! Comparing America to Rome! Never heard that before Must be true. You are not providing any clues to the why though. By saying that it is so that big business can have the contracts of demolishing is a bit of a stretch no? Everybody in that building paid taxes that they no longer pay. Much higher $ figure than what a contractor would get for demolishing the rubble.
http://www.criticalthrash.com/terror/identification.html
But those people were all talked into saying what they did right? I mean not one of them would go to France and sell an opposing story for millions of dollars if they could would they?
Insult us all you want but I often wonder why China hasn’t taken Taiwan by force yet? Can you tell me?
what a grippa,
get a grip anjinsan,
spare the abuse and sacasm for someone who is standing in front of you. typical of the views that come back against anyone questioning the u.s. in a bad light.
isn’t the site you sent what i was asking for, but you had to lace it with nazi venom. also if what you’d said had some humour in it no worries but nah, not a drop of wit to be had. bit of a dry spell mate.
anyway, the taxes lost aren’t lost. 3000 people ain’t that many and the billions spent now and in the coming years is signifcantly higher.
you trust your goverment. politicians and lawyers aren’t trusted anywhere. the u.s. supports wars , kills millions to keep the profits rolling and to keep out all other competitors(vietnam being a premo example of u.s. foriegn policy), no world peace in the u.s. agenda unless it’s profitable and adds to the empires reach.
it’s not anti u.s., it’s seeing the world as it is and not as the propaganda machine would have it seen.
taiwan had an appalling little dictatorship(but still the u.s. backed it) and is now slowly getting it right, the only reason china didn’t invade was the u.s. wanted it’s bargaining chip. history is a greast way to understand what’s happening today. rome, great britain, whatever. an empire is an empire and there are basic fundamentals that run through them all. you have to question. blind faith in those in power is fanatisim. isn’t that what all those brown fellas in the middle east and anywhere anti u.s. are supposed to be?
the u.s. legal system executes a large number of crims. the rest of the western world has pretty much decided this to be barbaric and inane. it lets off killers (O.J.) and is a place where the big bucks will win most of the time. pretty much like the rest of the worlds, the legal system has it’s limits but at least we see it’s limits.
as for insulting you all. i like most americans i’ve met and had a good time with them. these questions are actually respecful. 3000 people died, the u.s. government has it’s own agenda. all those questioning them are appalled by the loss of life and are asking questions americans seem to be ignoring but to the rest of the world who see the results of u.s. foriegn policy are blindingly obvious.
anyway seppo, reply with something pointlessly personal or come back with something worth reading.
ka kite
quote[quote] blind faith in those in power is fanatisim. isn't that what all those brown fellas in the middle east and anywhere anti u.s. are supposed to be? [/quote]Man, if you are still nursing the idea that there is no group of fanatical (yes!) “Muslims” out there trying to realize their insane vision of armageddon, then nothing will ever convince you otherwise. Bin Laden claimed credit. (Via Al-Jazeera, not CNN) He was pleasantly surprised that casualties were so high. Investigating the evidence is necessary, but the trail wasn’t really hidden.
And puh-leeeze. A “fanatic” who believes something because the president said so is not comparable to the real fanatics who murdered 3000 people in the space of minutes, and the many more who supported that crime with their ideology of hatred. Comparing them is just impossible.
You’re quite right that outside the US, public debate is less constrained (and I think the Bush administration’s use of this is despicable) - but at the same time, from an international distance some things become very obscured. Like people entertaining the idea that somehow the Pentagon airliner didn’t crash there at all. Huh? Where did the plane go? And the impression many foreigners have that there is not dissent against Bush within the US. This is patently false. Time and Newsweek are attacking him and his administration on multiple fronts, and even last fall when questioning him was quite unpopular the San Francisco Chronicle was regularly doing so.
And another thing: whatever you think about Bush, the Taliban should have been removed from power by a foreign coalition - or a single country - long ago, and to those who say American intervention there was heavyhanded or “unilateral” (gasp), I say it is a shame (I mean it, really unacceptable, shameful) that it took a direct attack on the US to make our government finally act. Everybody knew what was happening there - women stoned, the oldest Buddha statues in the world dynamited, Hindus & Christians forced to wear armbands, for God’s sake! If you oppose intervention there, then you must really believe that all countries should be left to go their own way no matter how barbaric. The really disgusting thing is that we could have done it at any time - I mean, we hardly used troops at all and an internal Afghani force basically routed the Taliban in weeks. It was for lack of the US having the will to basically flick a finger that the population of Afghanistan suffered, intensely, for years. I hope “nation-building” loses its stigma and the nations with power in the world start to recognize they have a responsibility to support political freedom around the world.
quote:You see that's our fundamental difference right there. 3,000 people dead is catastrophic to myself and 99.9% of Americans. I approached the subject from as a detached perspective as I could by going the economic route.
anyway, the taxes lost aren't lost. 3000 people ain't that many and the billions spent now and in the coming years is signifcantly higher.
Are you aware of the revenue generated by those two buildings daily? I think not. You count the losses in taxes by just the people that were butchered. Ever hear of property taxes? Gee millions of sq. ft of real estate in the best part of NYC probably goes for $55 a sq. ft. in leasing…about a third of that would be taxable…Figure it out yourself. Oh yeah and do you think they had insurance for plane crashes? Gee guess not.
This HURT our economy. It in turn hurt the WORLD economy. Just by having our airports and the stock market closed for the short time that they were cost us the annual gross revenue of many third world nations. It’s truly impossible to fathom the economic cost of this disaster but it would have to be at the very, very least 10x whatever the demolishionists made.
My point is a very simple one…America gained nothing by this tragedy in any way shape or form. We did not become the most economically sound country in the history of the planet by making absurd business decsions such as the one you are proposing we made. If you are going to spout insane theories it’s best to have the slightest spot of proof to back it up. On my side I have 8,000 hours of live video tape and witness acoounts. On your side…a nutball theory held together with conjecture.
anjinsan,
the airline companies got handouts from the government, europe was complaining because u.s. airline companies were then able to compete unfairly, so the u.s. airline coys were ok. are you sure those airplanes weren’t insured?
so some comanies made a loss that qarter, was any major long term damage done or was it all short term losses? land tax pales in comparison to how much the defense budget was boosted and will continue to be supported as a result of 911.
look past whats obvious and look for the bigger conseqences.
aren’t the economic losses just short term losses , the balace of power has shifted much more to the u.s. there are profits to be made, the u.s. has just spread it sphere of influence and put out very clear threats to anyone who doesn’t work for them. the whole world now knows that if the u.s. wants to it will take down the existing goverment and set in place its own puppet government. standard tactics over the centuries.
this is the great game back in full swing, before ww1 all the old empires and the new empire were vying for power and influence. the result was a “powderkeg” situation which blew up and as a result the british and american empire beame the most dominant in this century. stop counting the pennies and look at the bigger picture.
mr crisps,
a fanatic doesn’t have to froth at the mouth. in a small organisation or country a person has to back up their beliefs with action. in a large orgaisation or country a fanatic can sit back secure in the knowledge that there is someone else whose job it is to do the dirty work.
mate i hope the nations with power keep their nosesout of other peoples bussiness, rarely is it ever that the country with power is going in with humanitarian considerations (vietnam). the u.s. has tampered with western countries elections before, this is not the power you want deciding who can stay in power and who can’t. it’s too easy to dupe a public into believing that your side is right and the other is the devil incarnate.
again, this is not anti us., it’s just consider that in the political world there’s much more to it than meets the eye.
quote
Like people entertaining the idea that somehow the Pentagon airliner didn’t crash there at all. Huh? Where did the plane go?
mr crisps, just a add on, the french site mentioned on this thread is about the question where did the plane go? the only answer so far is vapourisation which is the first time i’ve ever heard of that outside star trek so i’m hoping that there is another answer or at least proof to back up that this has happened before.
anyways cheers
look forward to getting your views
see what happens?
Conspiracy Theory Grips French: Sept. 11 as Right-Wing U.S. Plot
By ALAN RIDING in the New York Time, NOT PUBLISHED IN TAIWAN YET…
PARIS, June 21 , 2002
Even before the fires were extinguished at the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, conspiracy theories began flooding the Internet. A few quickly spilled out of Web sites and were widely circulated by e-mail before fading into oblivion. One, however, has taken on a life of its own in France. It was turned into a book that has become the publishing sensation of the spring.
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In the book, “L’Effroyable Imposture,” or “The Horrifying Fraud,” Thierry Meyssan challenges the entire official version of the Sept. 11 attacks.
He claims the Pentagon was not hit by a plane, but by a guided missile fired on orders of far right-wingers inside the United States government. Further, he says, the planes that struck the World Trade Center were not flown by associates of Osama bin Laden, but were programmed by the same government people to fly into the twin towers.
What really interests him, though, is what he sees as the conspiracy behind these actions. He contends that it was organized by right-wing elements inside the government who were planning a coup unless President Bush agreed to increase military spending and go to war against Afghanistan and Iraq to promote the conspirators’ oil interests.
To achieve their goals, the theory goes, they blamed Osama bin Laden for Sept. 11 and later broadened their targets to include the “axis of evil,” centered on Iraq.
The 235-page book has been universally ridiculed by the French news media, while its arguments have been dismantled point by point in “L’Effroyable Mensonge,” or “The Horrifying Lie,” a new book by two French journalists.
A Pentagon spokesman said, “There was no official reaction because we figured it was so stupid.”
Yet in the past three months, Mr. Meyssan’s book has sold more than 200,000 copies in France, placing it at the top of best-seller lists for several weeks. Foreign rights have also been sold in 16 countries (a Spanish version is already on sale), and Mr. Meyssan traveled to Abu Dhabi in the United Arab Emirates in April to present his arguments at a local university.
The book’s French publisher, 丼itions Carnot, said it would release an English version in the United States in July.
Mr. Meyssan said in an interview that he was surprised his book had so far provoked no major debate, but he was convinced that his message was being heard.
“Two-thirds of the hits on our Web site come from the United States,” he said. “I’m not saying all my readers agree with me, but they recognize that the official American version of the attacks is idiotic. If we can’t believe the official version, where do we stand?”
It is nonetheless puzzling why so many of the French have been willing to pay the equivalent of $17 for “The Horrifying Fraud.” Is it a symptom of latent anti-Americanism? Is it a reflection of the French public’s famous distrust of its own government and mainstream newspapers? Or has the French love of logic been tickled by the apparent Cartesian neatness of a conspiracy theory?
Certainly, after Sept. 11, some leftist intellectuals suggested that the United States had invited the attacks through its support for Israel. Others recalled that Islamic militants had been financed and armed by the United States to fight the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan in the 1980’s. Yet, in this case, Lib廨ation and Le Monde, left-of-center newspapers with no love for the Bush administration, have led the assault on Mr. Meyssan’s book.
“The pseudotheories of `The Horrifying Fraud’ feed off the paranoid anti-Americanism that is one of the permanent components of the French political caldron,” G廨ard Dupuy wrote in an editorial in Lib廨ation. Edwy Plenel, news editor at Le Monde, wrote: “It is very grave to encourage the idea that something which is real is in fact fictional. It is the beginning of totalitarianism.”
Guillaume Dasqui?and Jean Guisnel, the authors of “The Horrifying Lie,” favor a different explanation for the book’s success. They write of France’s “profound social and political sickness,” which leads people to embrace the idea “that they are victims of plots, that the truth is hidden from them, that they should not believe official versions, but rather that they should demystify all expressions of power, whatever they might be.”
Still, even if some French are susceptible to conspiracy theories, few had heard of the book until March 16, when Mr. Meyssan appeared on a popular Saturday evening television program on France 2, a government-owned but independently run channel. In the program, Mr. Meyssan was allowed to expound his theory without being challenged by the host. In the two weeks that followed, his book sold 100,000 copies.
Mr. Meyssan himself seems an unlikely purveyor of tall stories. A 44-year-old former theology student, he dabbled in leftist politics before forming a political research company, R廥eau Voltaire, or Voltaire Network, in 1994.
The company’s Web site (www .reseauvoltaire.com) adopted specific causes, like fighting homophobia and opposing Jean-Marie Le Pen’s far-right National Front. Its investigative methods seemed thorough and objective.
In person too, Mr. Meyssan, a slim, wiry man with short hair and penetrating eyes, comes over as both serious and rational.
French journalists who had given some credibility to his Web site were all the more surprised, then, to find him building a vast conspiracy theory around the fact that photographs of the Sept. 11 attack showed no airplane parts in or near the smoldering gap in the Pentagon. This became the departure point for his book.
The line of reasoning that follows is a case study in how a conspiracy theory can be built around contradictions in official statements, unnamed “experts” and “professional pilots,” unverified published facts, references to past United States policy in Cuba and Afghanistan, use of technical information, “revelations” about secret oil-industry maneuvers and, above all, rhetorical questions intended to sow doubts. At the end of each chapter, Mr. Meyssan presents his speculation as fact.
To gather his evidence, he worked mainly from articles, statements and speculation found on the Internet. He did not travel to the United States to interview any witnesses. Indeed, he dismisses the accounts of witnesses to the crash of the American Airlines Boeing 757 into the Pentagon.
“Far from believing their depositions, the quality of these witnesses only underlines the importance of the means deployed by the United States Army to pervert the truth,” he said.
His “truth” is that no Muslims took part in the attacks “because the Koran forbids suicide.” To his original claim that the Pentagon was bombed from the inside, he has now added his conviction that the building was struck by an air-to-ground missile fired by the United States Air Force. “This type of missile, seen from the side, would easily remind one of a small civilian airplane,” he said.
In response, Mr. Dasqui?and Mr. Guisnel said they traveled to Washington and interviewed 18 witnesses to the Pentagon crash.
They also have named experts explaining how the Boeing 757 could disappear inside the crater caused by the impact. Further, they identify several people mentioned only by their initials in Mr. Meyssan’s acknowledgments, including a French Army officer currently on trial for treason and a middle-ranking intelligence officer.
The book has proved to be a windfall for Mr. Meyssan’s publisher. More accustomed to publishing marginal books on subjects like the “false” American moon landing in 1969 and the latest “truth” about U.F.O.'s, 丼itions Carnot can now boast of its first best seller.
Further, confident that this conspiracy theory will endure, Mr. Meyssan and Carnot have just published a 192-page annex, with new documents, photographs and theories. They call it “Le Pentagate.”
Mr. Meyssan’s silly conspiracy theory is reminiscent of Pierre Salinger’s French-bred theory that the U.S. Navy shot down TWA Flight 800.
Rudolf Guiliani’s ‘Guiliani Doctrine’ that the 911 attacks occurred because religious fanatics simply hated the American way of life is the more insidious conspiracy theory though because, though equally phony to Mr. Meyssan’s theory, it’s more subtle and widely held and being put into public and military policy by the U.S. government.
So Chicken, provide us fools with the TRUTH! Tell it like it is man! heh. Sorry could not resist. I’m sure you have valid proof to back your claims up; otherwise you’d be the fool right? A man who calls himself by the illustrious monikor “Fire Chicken” must be very well informed indeed. I am one of the guppies who has bought into the “Government Hype Machine” of America and I need rescuing. I constantly live in fear of George Bush and his oil greedy corporations that live in his pocket. I believe that they are planning the execution of my family to get oil prices reduced by .01 cent a barrel. SAve us with your knowledge…
Anjinsan, you’re just not making the effort to think critically about the official version you’re being fed. It’s doubly difficult because you live in the U.S. and you’re not hearing alternative voices like I am daily here throughout Asia. It just forces you to think when intelligent people from many different cultures personally challenge you to defend the U.S. position that clever, educated people from a variety of backgrounds would incinerate themselves and thousands of innocent people in horrific fireballs simply because of some vague notion that they hated the American value system. It’s just not a convincing nor logically defensible motivation.
A much more convincing motivation – and you need only take the terrorists at their posthumous words on this – is that they believed that the U.S. had actively taken sides in their religious war with Israel and that they were just striking back.
The American government in particular and Americans in general are so insecure about their own version that they were simply innocent victims minding their own business though that they lash back with hair-trigger personal attacks at anyone who would question it and immediately shut down any semblance of rational debate about it.
The reality then as to why the 911 attacks occurred is because the U.S. has actively taken sides in a religious war but this debate can’t, apparently, be allowed to begin because too many Americans will end up deciding they don’t want to be involved in anyone else’s religious wars and then there goes the invasion of Iraq.
Well, if al-Qaeda really wants to blame someone, they should blame the Europeans. In the 1800’s it was European anti-semitism that led to the First Zionist Congress in Switzerland, which gave everyone in Europe who mattered the idea that it was time for Jewish people to have their own state. Al-Qaeda, and the rest of the arab world, hates Israel. So, blame the Europeans. If they weren’t so anti-semitic then the Israeli state wouldn’t exist today, which is basically what every on that side of the Atlantic wants today. (First the Europeans get want they want - namely the Jews out of their lands, now they want the Jews out of every land, including the one they gave them. Not very easy to satisfy, those Europeans, are they?)*
From the BBC:
1897: “Herzl, a Jewish journalist and writer living in Vienna, wanted Jews to have their own state - primarily as a response to European anti-Semitism.”
1917: "…in 1917, the British Foreign Minister Arthur Balfour committed Britain to work towards
Now that time has passed, has there been any evidence found (wreckage, camere footage etc.) that it was a plane which hit the pentagon?
Personally I cannot imagine that an entire airliner can just varporise, there surely must be some leftovers (shrapnel etc.) instead!?
I am not trying to start a discussion or conspiracy theory about that, just want to know the answer to that question.
quote:
Originally posted by Rascal: Now that time has passed, has there been any evidence found (wreckage, camere footage etc.) that it was a [b]plane[/b] which hit the pentagon?Personally I cannot imagine that an entire airliner can just varporise, there surely must be some leftovers (shrapnel etc.) instead!?
Yes. Go to Google and search for: plane pentagon wreckage
You’ll find lots of links to photos, analysis, accounts by rescue workers, etc.
Also are links to nutcase conspiracy sites…
Only people who believe “The X-Files” is reality or rabid anti-american fanatics would even raise the question…
9/11. Yes. The U.S. was attacked. Just like the U.S. embassies got hit in Africa and the USS Cole was attacked in Yemen. What is there to dispute?
I say let’s move to the real question whether the moon landing was just a Hollywood stunt done in a soundstage near beautiful downtown Los Angeles.
What angers me are the reasons why the U.S was attacked, but that is a U.S. problem.
You forgot to quote my last part:
I am not trying to start a discussion or conspiracy theory about that, just want to know the answer to that question.
Only people who believe “The X-Files” is reality or rabid anti-american fanatics would even raise the question…
Thanks O’Brien for not allowing people to ask questions but rather swallow everything they are fed by their government.
And to make this clear: I am not a rabid anti-american fanatic but instead try to keep an open mind which you are obviously not willing to do.
quote:
Originally posted by Rascal: And to make this clear: I am not a rabid anti-american fanatic but instead try to keep an open mind which you are obviously not willing to do.
A mind open to “what” exactly??? If you ask if anyone has come up with proof that bestiality is a cultural norm in New Zealand, am I supposed to “keep an open mind”?
Sorry to disappoint you but I have a low tolerance for rank stupidity and if that means I don’t have an “open mind” (by your definition)…so be it.
quote:
Originally posted by O'Brian: If you ask if anyone has come up with proof that bestiality is a cultural norm in New Zealand, am I supposed to "keep an open mind"?
Sorry O’Brien, I don’t have any actual photos, but really, you only need to go to rural New Zealand and see the way the sheep protect themselves there – staying in groups in the middle of large empty fields (so they can see the horny rugby players coming in plenty of time to escape).
Also, look at how nervous and skittish they get when they’re penned and there are men around.
And if all that weren’t enough to convince any reasonable person, remember that many NZ-ers are descended from Scotsmen and Welshmen.
Circumstantial, I know, but pretty damning nonetheless.
For what should be the final proof, go to www.bol.com and do a search under “sheepshagger” (I can’t get the link thingy to work).