U.S. Immigration Debate


#41

Not that I’m terribly interested in what America does on its border ( now that B.C. has Sunday drinking), but here’s an opinion on George Bush’s plan to send in the National Guard:

[quote]In December of 2005, Fox News talking head Bill O


#42

[quote=“aprimo”]Note that some immigrants face “years-long, 400-person waiting lists” for such classes.

On another note, Ironlady, are you suggesting you’d like your translating/interpreting business to dry up because of all immigrants learning English? :wink:[/quote]

Some face waiting lists. Many others do not.

I don’t do much work with immigrant populations here, since most of what I do is technical Chinese, and we don’t get many immigrants from China coming with the latest weapons-guidance system in their suitcase complete with instruction manual just waiting to be translated into English. (Although the FBI did recently ruin the life of a Chinese guy living right here in upstate NY who was accused of exporting weapons guidance systems that later turned out not to be on the restricted list after all. But they didn’t call me for translation anyway. :frowning: )

My point is, though, that if you immigrate to a country, the expectation should be that you are going to make yourself a part of that country. I know the US is known as the “melting pot”, but today there is little “melting” going on. Lots of lumps in the gravy that are resisting being stirred in, for the most part.

I don’t think any long-term foreigner residents (the closest to immigrants in Taiwan, for the most part) in Taiwan would say that they have had to sacrifice their culture to get ahead in Taiwan using the local language and customs in public. We still celebrated all the major Western festivals, spoke English in the home, etc. But I can’t imagine myself seriously contemplating immigrating to Taiwan if I were not willing to become (maybe not 100% but surely a substantial percentage) Taiwanese. Otherwise you are merely a visitor (which is fine) but don’t go demanding rights and this and that.


#43

Actually Ironlady, I think that those are all eminently fair points. It is all about respect really isn’t it? If you are going to move to another country, realize that to a large extent that you are going to have to be the one adapting, while still attempting to navigate your own cultural mores as they brush up against or even crash against the new adopted culture. This may not be easy but as I believe that you have pointed out, the final choice was the emigres or in this case do I say immigrant? I agree.


#44

While countries and nations exist, I believe that each nation has a right to enforce and secure its borders. This includes deportation and reasonable detention procedures.

Note that this debate is more about Mexican illegal immigration than say illegal immigration from Asia or Africa.

I am alright with enforcing laws so long as enforcement applies to all persons and all laws. What am I talking about? Supply and demand. Would these people hop the border if they couldn’t find jobs? Probably a lot less. Who employs them? Your fruit growers, your wal-marts, your meatpackers and canners, basically any US business that takes advantage of low-cost manual labor. Where’s the outcry when these AMERICANS are breaking the law? And they’re not only taking advantage of the mexicans, but also of the US taxpayer. How? By shifting cost/burden to us. We’re talking about things like healthcare and education, etc.

I’m all for immigration and naturalisation, because this is a nation of immigrants, but at the same time, law and order must prevail. But it only makes sense to me if everyone involved is scrutinized. If everyone who has broken the law must pay the piper. When you fix the demand, the supply will also be fixed. This is also similar to the US’ inept war on drugs. Let’s put those white-collar wall street hotshots, lawyers, doctors, politicians, hollywood bigshots, college kids, high school kids in jail for buying illegal drugs that fund criminal organizations here and abroad. Don’t blame the mule alone.


#45

While many are concerned about the heavy Mexican immigration (illegal), I think an even bigger mistake would be to shut them out of society as the Europeans have done. Let’s not see an underground economy filled with illegals existing side by side with the rest of our society. I agree with Bush. We need to legalize these people (all 12 million) to give them a stake in society or we will see North African and West African style eruptions in our cities akin to those in France. If we open the door to these people, they will become American. I just returned from two weeks in Mexico and the naturalized American citizens of Mexican descent are very keen to point to themselves as American. They left Mexico for a reason and now that they are officially American they are proud of that fact. To them, citizenship represents a brand, one that they are proud to own and given their hard work and family oriented traits, what’s not to like? I imagine that given those conditions a great many will see the wisdom of voting Republican so I am all for accepting them. Haha


#46

Isn’t amnesty for illegal immigrants from Mexico declared every ten years or so? Rather than continuing to pretend that the U.S. exercises sovereignty over its border with Mexico maybe it should just accept reality and officially surrender to the Mexican government.

The terms of surrender would be simple. Any Mexican citizen could obtain U.S. citizenship by passing a basic running and swimming fitness test and any U.S. citizens who wanted to become a dual U.S./Mexican citizen and live the simple life in Mexico could do so by signing an oath attesting to the fact that they wouldn’t take a minimum wage job even if their lives depended on it.

The only other term of surrender would be that Mexico immediately embark on the customary multigazillion dollar Marshall Plan-style restoration of the hollowed-out American economy for having been so foolish as to invade and conquer the U.S. in the first place.


#47

:notworthy: :notworthy:
I (mostly) agree with Bush on this score as well, (though not with the N.G. mobilisation). Read an interesting article on Bush’s position and one good reason for paying heed to Bush’s arguments on this issue is that (unlike with war for example) is that as the Governor of Tejas, he has loads of experience with the issue, and understands the vital role immigrants play in our society. In Texas the oldest, most well-established families (7th Generation and more) are Mexican. The Germans, Czechs, English, Italians, and Irish are the newcomers (and presumabley poisoning Texas with their foriegn culture and languages). America is beautiful.

I also find it interesting that so many people who otherwise support “free markets” want a closed labor market.


#48

I may not be catching on here. What I’m hearing is something along the lines of the thesis that if you don’t want to leave the front door to your house unlocked and wide open twenty-four hours a day that probably means you hate people and want to live your life as a hermit.

?


#49

Anything that takes attention away from Iraq. Wait until Bush shows up at the border in his flight suit. That’s a real leader.


#50

And it isn’t going to get any better anytime soon…problems in Ol’ Mexico are quickly reaching critical mass…
IMO, President Bush has been a wash-out in the illegal aliens/border security department. ICE is trying, and beggining to make progress, but its fighting an already risen tide.

[quote]Mexico Voters Fear Nation on Edge of Chaos
May 17, 6:12 AM EDT, By JULIE WATSON
Associated Press Writer

MEXICO CITY (AP) – Police enraged by the kidnapping of six officers club unarmed detainees. A bloody battle between steelworkers and police leaves two miners dead. Drug lords post the heads of decapitated police on a fence to show who’s in charge.

Less than two months before Mexicans elect their next president, many fear the country is teetering on the edge of chaos - a perception that could hurt the ruling National Action Party’s chances of keeping the presidency and benefit Mexico’s once-powerful Institutional Revolutionary Party, whose candidate has been trailing badly.(article at link)
AP Story[/quote]

[quote=“RichardM”]Anything that takes attention away from Iraq. Wait until Bush shows up at the border in his flight suit. That’s a real leader.[/quote]Sorry RichardM, am unable to see the relevance of this quip to the topic. Just your usual anti-Bush emissions.


#51

Whoa whoa whoa…you got yer people comin on across mah border illegally, and mah gov’munt wahnts ta put some National Guard boys up thar on that thar border to stop 'em, and if’n we do, you all are gonna sue US?*

Well, holy thunderin shitballs…ain’t this a pickle.

news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060517/ap_ … igration_7

  • drawl in homage to TC :slight_smile:

#52

[quote=“TainanCowboy”]

I had an emission and nobody told me?

What I meant was that the immigration problem is being used to deflect attention from an unpopular war and an unpopular president. It will give the Republicans something to campaign on.

Bush sucks. (Oooh. I had another one.)


#53

I strongly second RichardM on this point. There’s absolutely no reason that this issue should suddenly come to prominence; nothing has really changed on that border. There’s no crisis. The only possible explanation is that right-wing Republicans are pissing in their pants at the rising public sentiment against them, and they’re desperate to redirect attention. What better way than the tried and true method of focusing on an external, imagined enemy? Xenophobia has served demagogues well for centuries, and, well, as the 2nd worst president in U.S. history once said, “there you go again…”


#54

I’ll defer from speculating about the president’s political agenda, but this issue is not one that can written off as pure diversion. The fact is that a lot of Americans are very upset, justifiably or not, and illegal/undocumented immigrants contribute to the strain that a lot of municipalities are feeling in their hospitals and other public service areas. Additionally, there is the problem that right now there are essentially 2 separate employment systems, one for citizens and legal residents, and another for illegals. Then throw in the problems children of illegals (that were not born here) have when they grow up and are faced with either being 2nd class residents or going back to a country they haven’t seen since the were too young to remember and I’d say yeah, there’s some legit issues there. Also, since Congress has plenary power over naturalization, it’s the federal government’s responsibility to handle these things, and frankly, I think its about time they did.


#55

Oh, come on. Of course it’s Bush trying desperately to point the finger anywhere but at his failure of a foreign policy. He was the governor of Texas for how many years? With how many miles of border with Mexico, and how many illegal immigrants in the state? Yet he suddenly notices this issue now? Where was all the debate and all the action he would logically have taken years ago as Governor?

This is as ludicrous as the folks in Washington, DC being astonished almost every year when it snows deep enough to foul up the roads. “But we’re a Southern city,” the cry goes up…


#56

I think George Bush would like this problem to go away and he’s just reacting to it rather than creating it for political cover.

Does anyone here really believe we exercise effective control over who and what crosses our southern border? If we don’t, what possible rational argument could there be against trying to establish minimal control of a national border?


#57

I agree with Spook. The border state governors have made this an issue because of lack of federal funds to cover the costs involved. The Minutemen have raised the issue by patrolling the borders themselves. Finally, does anyone think Bush organized the massive illegal alien marches? I mean really. Do none of you actually read, watch and understand what is going on?

Fair points all. We should try to establish minimum control of our border to stop terrorists from entering and because it just makes sense. BUT I am all for naturalizing those that are already in the country. They are not going to go anywhere and it will be in our best interests to make them stakeholders in our system.


#58

I have seen the point made that one reason for this issue coming up now is due to changing patterns of where immigrants (legal or otherwise ) are going- no longer just the big cities or farms in the SouthWest and California, but smaller, more rural communities, especially in the South and Mid-West- places not used to a bunch of non-white foreigners.

And given the reaction by the right-wing, I would think the last think George Bush wants is for this to be a big issue- they’re the ones calling for impeachment!

If he goes with his corporate buddies and supports amnesty/guest worker programs, the Right will explode with outrage; if he mollifies the base he pisses off the big donors, and jeopardizes all that hard work courting the Hispanic vote.


#59

I have seen the point made that one reason for this issue coming up now is due to changing patterns of where immigrants (legal or otherwise ) are going- no longer just the big cities or farms in the SouthWest and California, but smaller, more rural communities, especially in the South and Mid-West- places not used to a bunch of non-white foreigners.

And given the reaction by the right-wing, I would think the last think George Bush wants is for this to be a big issue- they’re the ones calling for impeachment!

If he goes with his corporate buddies and supports amnesty/guest worker programs, the Right will explode with outrage; if he mollifies the base he pisses off the big donors, and jeopardizes all that hard work courting the Hispanic vote.


#60

So who shall we send to the Presidential Palace to demand citizenship for all foreign English teachers who have worked illegally for at least X years? How many trucks do you think it would take them to move all those demonstrating kindy teachers to CKS Airport?