Ukraine invaded by the Russians...again Dec-Feb 2022

[Mick]

@Brianjones

But why wouldn’t other countries not help Ukraine defend themselves , NATO or not ?
Russia isn’t the sovereign rule of Ukraine.

Nor is China the sovereign ruler of Taiwan, yet somehow we understand certain things are going to set China off, no matter how unreasonable we all see it.

[Brianjones]

So should everybody just let Russia occupy a European country ? I don’t think so…Even non NATO countries will be very concerned. European countries should help arm Ukraine to defend themselves and stop dealing with Russia as much as possible.
I don’t think there were any particular actions that ‘set Russia off’ they just see a chance to make a land grab.

[Mick]

@Brianjones

So should everybody just let Russia occupy a European country ? I don’t think so…Even non NATO countries will be very concerned.

I think everyone is concerned, when Chinas Generals are mouthing off how China will attack as soon as the first US battle ship docks in Kaohsiung, we take it with a grain of salt, we also know to be mindful

The Economist had a good piece, if the goal is containing NATO in Ukraine, Russia has some difficult decisions to make.

As war looms larger, what are Russia’s military options in Ukraine?

For the paywall, copy the address, open a new window in incognito, from menu choose “more tools>developer tools” then type Ctl+Shift+P and type “Java”, disable the java script and paste the address. When you close the incognito window no change to other windows will happen.

[Charlie_Jack]

@KHHville

Just read that link.

I went to your link (haven’t read it all yet), and right off the bat I encountered this:

During the recent Direct Line, when I was asked about Russian-Ukrainian relations, I said that Russians and Ukrainians were one people – a single whole.

. . .

. . . I would like to emphasize that the wall that has emerged in recent years between Russia and Ukraine, between the parts of what is essentially the same historical and spiritual space, to my mind is our great common misfortune and tragedy.

Article by Vladimir Putin ”On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians“ • President of Russia

That’s really enough for me–I get your point–but I may take a look at the rest.

Now, I’m pretty much neutral about the above, but I expressed my suspicions about that kind of thing on this board back in August of 2012, based on a familiar tune I’d heard on the radio some years before:

@Charlie_Jack

Years ago I occasionally caught the Voice of Russia (in English) on shortwave, and I noticed that their interval signal was “The Great Gate of Kiev.” It got me to wondering what might be on somebody’s mind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lS5MSICox2g

As is usual with my posts, nobody paid any attention .

Anyway, my main reason for wanting to leave the situation alone has very little to do with any of the quoted matter above, with all respect to all parties. I would add that I’m not a fan of irredentism- or revanchism-based aggression, nor am I a fan of dictators or dictatorships. My main reason for wanting to stay out of this mess is that generally, in a war, people–often a large number of people–are killed. I don’t want anyone to be killed over these matters. And I confess that, being a selfish American, I especially don’t want any Americans to be killed.

A little optional (very optional) reading:

The Weinberger doctrine:

The United States should not commit forces to combat unless the vital national interests of the United States or its allies are involved.
U.S. troops should only be committed wholeheartedly and with the clear intention of winning. Otherwise, troops should not be committed.
U.S. combat troops should be committed only with clearly defined political and military objectives and with the capacity to accomplish those objectives.
The relationship between the objectives and the size and composition of the forces committed should be continually reassessed and adjusted if necessary.
U.S. troops should not be committed to battle without a “reasonable assurance” of the support of U.S. public opinion and Congress.
The commitment of U.S. troops should be considered only as a last resort.

Weinberger Doctrine - Wikipedia

The Powell Doctrine states that a list of questions all have to be answered affirmatively before military action is taken by the United States:

Is a vital national security interest threatened?
Do we have a clear attainable objective?
Have the risks and costs been fully and frankly analyzed?
Have all other non-violent policy means been fully exhausted?
Is there a plausible exit strategy to avoid endless entanglement?
Have the consequences of our action been fully considered?
Is the action supported by the American people?
Do we have genuine broad international support?[2]

Powell Doctrine - Wikipedia

[KHHville]

Agree very much with your comment, and emphasize 2 things again.

1. which you also aptly point out, that many people will die, and (my opinion) that MIC will just get rich again (Cheney’s gang);
2. if there is war in Ukraine, there will be consequences in Asia. I am not going to spell it out, but people in Taiwan need to know that any war in Ukraine between NATO and Russia for whatever reason is very very bad for Taiwan. I’ll leave it at that.

[Charlie_Jack]

@KHHville

if there is war in Ukraine, there will be consequences in Asia. I am not going to spell it out, but people in Taiwan need to know that any war in Ukraine between NATO and Russia for whatever reason is very very bad for Taiwan. I’ll leave it at that.

I’m not sure of this second point, but I don’t think it should be ignored in any contemplation of going to war with Russia.

[Mick]

I just watched Bidens press conference, with regards the Russia and Ukraine situation, he seemed to be saying.

1. Minor incursions won’t trigger the full response an outright invasion would.
2. If Russia did do a full on invasion it would be one of the most significant events since WWII, that Russia has the capability to do it and the consequences would be sanctions which would hurt Russia in the mid and long term terribly. So, he argues it’s not in their interests to do it.
3. No inclusion of Ukraine for a decade at least into NATO, the build up of NATO forces and military equipment seems to be both happening and something open to some negotiation.

[Malasang88]

Here’s an interview from Fareed Zakaria with Dmitry Peskov, Putin aide and spokesperson for the Kremlin.

Fareed Zakaria GPS - Kremlin Spokesman On Russia's Intentions In Ukraine

Ukraine’s membership taking at least a decade is not surprising since NATO is based on the consensus of 30 countries. Technically anyone is welcome to join provided all members agree.

[Malasang88]

@KHHville

if there is war in Ukraine, there will be consequences in Asia. I am not going to spell it out, but people in Taiwan need to know that any war in Ukraine between NATO and Russia for whatever reason is very very bad for Taiwan. I’ll leave it at that.

There has been plenty of coverage and speculation across all media channels that Putin and Xi are either collaborating or closely watching each other’s actions.

[jdsmith]

I cannot believe he used the phrase” nuclear war” in one of his answers. Jeeeeesus

[tempogain]

@Charlie_Jack

I’m not sure of this second point, but I don’t think it should be ignored in any contemplation of going to war with Russia.

Yeah, but do you know what else will be very very bad for Taiwan? Sitting back and allowing our allies to be dismembered chunk by chunk while we do nothing and tell them “sorry we can’t help you, it’s for your own good.”

[Charlie_Jack]

@tempogain

@Charlie_Jack

I’m not sure of this second point, but I don’t think it should be ignored in any contemplation of going to war with Russia.

Yeah, but do you know what else will be very very bad for Taiwan? Sitting back and allowing our allies to be dismembered chunk by chunk while we do nothing and tell them “sorry we can’t help you, it’s for your own good.”

I would like for us to get out of NATO. I don’t want us to get involved in a third war in Europe. [1], [2], [3 (PDF document)]

[KHHville]

@Charlie_Jack

@tempogain

@Charlie_Jack

I’m not sure of this second point, but I don’t think it should be ignored in any contemplation of going to war with Russia.

Yeah, but do you know what else will be very very bad for Taiwan? Sitting back and allowing our allies to be dismembered chunk by chunk while we do nothing and tell them “sorry we can’t help you, it’s for your own good.”

I would like for us to get out of NATO. I don’t want us to get involved in a third war in Europe. [1], [2], [3 (PDF document)]

AMEN

[tempogain]

Sounds very very bad for Taiwan. Oh well.

[Charlie_Jack]

@tempogain

Sounds very very bad for Taiwan. Oh well.

What if someone sees an opportunity while we’re busy with Russia? I think we might be pressing our luck to try a repeat of last century’s fighting-across-two-oceans routine.

[tempogain]

It’s not like our navy is going to be bogged down in Ukraine. Joint action of this kind by Russia and China is going to be an existential that has to be defended against at all costs. Throwing in the towel before it begins sounds like a scarier idea to me–and all of the possibilities here are scary more or less.

[QuaSaShao]

Big mistake . . .

After the dissolution of the Soviet Union, Ukraine held about one third of the Soviet nuclear arsenal, the third largest in the world at the time, as well as significant means of its design and production. 130 UR-100N intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBM) with six warheads each, 46 RT-23 Molodets ICBMs with ten warheads apiece, as well as 33 heavy bombers, totaling approximately 1,700 warheads remained on Ukrainian territory. Formally, these weapons were controlled by the Commonwealth of Independent States. In 1994 Ukraine agreed to destroy the weapons, and to join the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (NPT).

[jdsmith]

They turned out to be fairly corrupt. Maybe not?

[cake]

As always, it is about making money. Do people actually believe those pulling the strings with NATO care about Ukrainians?
Looks like the conflict is to pull Germany away from Russia, to sell US LNG to Germany among other things.
Lots of arms sales as usual.
There is a bombardment from the mainstream media - mouthpiece of the elites (as seen in the last 2 years), with total bollox feeding the people.
There are people that think Putin plans to walk through London in jackboots.

[Mick]

Tucker Carlson has for about a month or so been asking “why do we care so much about Ukraine?” which seems a reasonable question but resulted in another round of ad hominem attacks on him from both sides of the political spectrum but both likely aligned with the endless war crowd.

He usually juxtaposes US’s border (which seemingly Biden/Harris don’t care about) with Ukraine’s sacred border which must not be breached for comic effect, but it’s a bit silly really.

Other than him I haven’t seen anyone ask, why exactly is the US playing a game of brinkmanship with Russia over Ukraine?