‘As much as some posters would also like to address our unpunished war criminals, let’s just make sure Russia’s war criminals are brought to justice.’
Here’s an idea: Start A Thread. You can begin with Russia’s activities in Afghanistan, Georgia and Syria and then go on from there.
1 Like
Later reports say the ship was abandoned and was afloat burning for quite a while.
Interesting is the absence of a storm, which Russian authorities claimed sunk the ship. 
1 Like
Better yet, he can also include a comparison with the US/NATO campaigns in Aghanistan and Syria, and how many locals died, how much infrastructure destroyed, how many friendlies then turned enemies. Maybe throw in Vietnam and Iraq for bonus points. That’d be a really good thread. This is a really good idea.
1 Like
Practicing what you preach is a better idea.
1 Like
1 Like
Blockquote
The entire Donbas conflict was Russia-imposed. Basically the entire war was by started Russia in 2014, with the annexation of Crimea, support of Donbas militia, weapons, expertise, etc., similar attempts in Khrakiv and Odessa. As I said, the core problem is Russia’s imperialism, Russia just cannot see Ukraine drifting from its sphere of influence to the West. Same for Belarus and Kazakhstan. Minsk agreements were imposed on unfavorable terms for Ukraine, when it was weak. Russia is the core of the problem, unfortunately Ukraine has to fight to the end, Russia will never stop unless something happens to Putin and there will be some drastic turn of politics.
2 Likes
You forget the 2014 coup that ousted the then democratically elected President. Russias reaction was not proportionate, or reasonable, the idea “the entire war was by started Russia in 2014” does not balance the fact there was a coup that preceded it.
Well, that’s the context, if you want to do the finger pointing game and claim everything was because Russia started it, I think you need to cherry pick facts, as you are doing.
However, we have covered all this before, the whole situation seems messed up to me, our political leaders in the west who cheered on the coup, and Ukrainian political types from various groups who pushed for a coup and Russians of course who rightly are getting the lions share of the blame, all failed to find political solutions.
3 Likes
More or less.
The fog of war is thick. It’s hard to know the whole picture right after an event has happened, especially when there are only Russians to tell the story.
However, my early impression is also that the Moskva was still burning and floating until the morning, and that’s why I thought the Norwegian video might fit the bell. There are short video clips now from the ships trying to salvage the Moskva, and it’s also in day light, with relatively calm seas.
1 Like
I am not cherry picking facts, on the contrary, I am trying to generalize that the core of the problem is Russia with its imperialism and that it cannot just let Ukraine go and be a sovereign nation that can freely choose its path, if Russia does not have anything good to offer apart from backward regime of autocracy, kleptocracy, and other associated shit, why not it be with the West and EU? This is just historical logic, it is not new, all this shit happened in history and happening again.
Let me remind you the sequence of events: there was supposed to the the signing of agreement of association with the European Union in Vilnius. Yanukovich cancelled it at the last moment under the pressure from Putin. It triggered peaceful protests on Majdan (central square in Kiev). The protests were about to dissolve naturally, but on 30 November 2013 Yanukovich spills the first blood, uses violence to dissolve the peaceful protest. This triggers the huge reaction, Ukrainians are a bit like French in this regard (1789, 1830, 1848, again, please refer to history), go to barricades, the result is the exile of Yanukovich who proved to lose legitimacy by trampling over the democratic institutions like the right for peaceful protest. Let me remind you that there was provisional government, and the democratic elections followed shortly, the new parliament (rada) and president (Poroshenko) were democratically elected by May 2014.
2 Likes
Nobody believes it was a misunderstanding and a mistake. That author is on crack. Even Germany has finally woken up !
1 Like
I believe they lost a significant number of sailors otherwise they would all be parading around.
Their families get to suffer in silence.
1 Like
Of course not. Would there have been a point for the leaders of the ROC to negotiate peace with the government of the Manchukuo? The only meaningful negotiation would have been with Japan, and for Japan to promise not to invade the ROC.
Belarus pretending to be a neutral mediator between Ukraine and Russia is as transparent and laughable as Russia pretending to be a neutral mediator between the Ukrainian government and the Donbas separatists.
1 Like
Correct @crusher
It’s not complicated . You are either with the democratic sovereign European nation defending it’s borders and democratic will of the people against murdering rapists and barbarians. Or you are not.
Time to choose sides.
Especially as a European there’s really no ambiguity. This is first part of a war prosecuted on Europe. Fortunately NATO is ready.
4 Likes
I saw a post by a father of a conscript who was a cook on the ship. Conscripts are not supposed to be used in combat operations. Russian army just said he is MIA.
Father accepted the reality that his son is most likely dead.
1 Like
Source ?