US Presidential Election 2004 II

Pinesay, I have no real problem with home-schooling. Good that you will be spending time with your children. With regards to education, I think our system works best as a meritocracy, and we shouldn’t hold parental wealth against kids. May your children go on to be everything that they can be!! I do take some sense of relief when I read articles about home-schooled kids who go on to kick butt in the world.

Private schools are, on their own, not inherently bad (except of course for the Catholic ones which are hotbeds of NAMBLA-style child buggery). I don’t even mind voucher programs providing some competition. However, I don’t want to see the United States become some sort of land where guys in little lord fauntleroy velvet suits prance their way into positions of privilege based solely on their parental income. There is something distinctly “un-American” and decidedly aristocratic in the notion that the U.S., state or local governments should perpetuate any schemes that allow rich kids to go to well-funded schools and poor kids to go to un-funded nightmares.

Fred: Explain how the educators don’t need unions. They’re paid frickin’ peanuts in a lot of the districts around the U.S. Seems like the Oregon school systems had to shut down last year because of the shortfall in funds from Bush’s tax cuts and his efforts to gut the educational programs he pretended to support. Wasn’t teacher strikes. It was the government running out of money for schools. Please explain what “programs” are well funded, using facts instead of those usual mushy things you Republicans often use.

Well MFGR:

Explain how having unions has helped teachers if their salaries are so low.

And by the way, I am not against unions, I am merely asking where the competition that would be normal in any market is.

Flippy – balances are struck between unions and business, and it’s a process in flux. Before unions, workers got screwed royally every day of the week. The big unions in the manufacturing industries took big hits under free trade, and that’s not a bad thing either.

If salaries are too high, somebody else will come along to fill the job for less. Conversely, if the salaries are too low, the workers have ways to get it. If they can’t strike a deal, then there are definite risks to both sides to being unreasonable (e.g., plant shuts down and moves to Mexico, or company loses weeks of production from a strike). There are plenty of companies that have good relations with their workers – most tend to be pretty good with communications.

I’d be fine with seeing the pool of teachers broadened to include more people. Why should we be stuck with education majors? Let’s get physicists and chemists into our science classrooms, let’s get historians into our history classes, and so on… There are plenty of people with bachelor and master’s degrees who could contribute.

However, I find something pretty dumb about targeting a bunch of low-paid teachers as if they were the cause of everything wrong in their underfunded schools. What are these guys supposed to do without proper textbooks? With buildings that are falling apart? Americans generally talk the talk about education but just don’t walk the walk.

Are you saying that we don’t spend enough, are you saying that we don’t spend it in the right ways, or are you saying both?

Hypothetical: The education budget is doubled tomorrow … no … Let’s say quadrupled. Then, we’ll let liberal XXXXX of your own choice run the Department of Education. Then, for a bonus, we’ll say the president and congress do anything you ask.

Will the situation improve, meaning, will children get an education that is competitive in the world market?

I guess I’m asking you to play god (little g) for a moment. WWMFGRD?

Hypothetically? OK, first I’d get a bunch of people understand education to advise me – i.e., to discuss the likely outcomes of various ideas on the table. I’d also need to go through the tax bases, and existing state setups – not all communities or states are alike in how they handle education.

It’s been a problem for a long time that the guys getting the education degrees in colleges are often the guys who are just trying to finish up a degree (any degree) after being an “undecided” major for 3-1/2 years. Pretty much anybody who’s gone to college knows these guys – at the last minute they opt into an education degree not because they like teaching but because they want to graduate on time. Screw that. There’s lots of people who would like to teach, would be good at teaching, but the pay sucks and they’d have to go through lots of certification courses. I’d deregulate a lot of the certification requirements (keeping in a background check just in case any horny Catholic priests try to sneak in). As with any economic situation, I’d increase pay to something liveable but also expect a lot more out of the teachers, including the ability to fire shitty teachers.

I’d fund after-school and other programs – the sort of stuff that keeps kids healthy, learning stuff, etc. America’s future soldiers and workers shouldn’t be fat losers or headed to jail. The cost in unwanted kids and jailtime just isn’t worth it. Heck, I’d even provide some funding to let home-schoolers get textbooks, etc. Private schools could probably apply for some kinds of funding… provided it doesn’t go toward S&M gear for Catholic priests.

[quote=“fred smith”]Let me get this straight. We are supposed to listen to some leftie from San Francisco who comes out to the sticks and is just horrified HORRIFIED at the life she finds there, the prejudice, the ignorance, the lack of sophistication. What has she been watching? Paris Hilton’s jaunt to the countryside? Sounds like she is a bit full of herself. Better for her to stay in San Francisco then lest she dirty herself among the great unwashed.
[/quote]

Uh, “SHE” is a “HE”. You forgot most of my friends are male specimens, Fred.
Feminist cow that i am…

And he doesn’t really emote much, either. He was speaking of his loony bin sister, who got knocked up for the first time at 15, has been living off foodstamps and welfare, and who thinks she should vote for Bush because Dale Jr likes Bush, but even in this she’s mistaken according to mofanggongren. So she’s a real Bush supporter, indeed.
What a wise and deep thinking “constitchency” the GOP has. Poor stupid people voting for the kind of candidate who’d cut off their funding in a heartbeat!

It’s kind of like if you decided to eat at Grandma Nitti’s every day, it’s that ironic.

[quote="Alien[/quote]Uh, “SHE” is a “HE”. You forgot most of my friends are male specimens, Fred.
Feminist cow that I am…

And he doesn’t really emote much, either. He was speaking of his loony bin sister, who got knocked up for the first time at 15, has been living off foodstamps and welfare, and who thinks she should vote for Bush because Dale Jr likes Bush, but even in this she’s mistaken according to mofanggongren. So she’s a real Bush supporter, indeed.
What a wise and deep thinking “constitchency” the GOP has. Poor stupid people voting for the kind of candidate who’d cut off their funding in a heartbeat!

It’s kind of like if you decided to eat at Grandma Nitti’s every day, it’s that ironic.[/quote]

Call Sign:Boston Strangler

Winter Soldier .com

Vietnam Vets Against John Kerry

John Kerry And The Unasked/Unanswered Questions

[url=http://www.theunionleader.com/articles_showa.html?article=42011]The Mary Ann myth:
Kerry falsifies NH woman

[quote=“fred smith”]Has it been proved yet that Halliburton and other companies are in fact looting the American treasury for overinflated military services supply bills? I recall that one case against Halliburton was dropped though you are forgiven for not remembering this for all the media play it received, when it proved that it paid higher prices for oil because it went through a Kuwaiti middleman who pocketed all the money. The only person who could supply this gas was him and he benefited from it disproportionately.

Now, the other case was for soldier’s meals that were not eaten. But this happens everywhere. If you make a reservation for 1,000 for dinner but only 950 show up, guess how many you still have to pay for? 1,000! My God! Attack every convention center or large hotel in the United States immediately!!! Corruption!!! Fraud!!! Outrage!!![/quote]

I don’t believe Halliburton fraud has been proven yet. However, according to the Wall Street Journal, Halliburton has billed the US for a bit more than $6 billion to date, all for services rendered in Iraq. For more than two years now, according to the WSJ, the Pentagon has disputed more than $1.8 billion of these billings. More to the point, the Pentagon has concluded that Halliburton’s accounting system is too poor to meet DoD audit requirements; Halliburton strongly disputes the DoD’s contention.

One problem, according to the WSJ, is that the Pentagon requires Halliburton to provide any number of services ‘on the fly’ and then turns around and requires a complete accounting of same.

However, we Americans should note that Halliburton’s ability to do precisely this was vouchsafed by the Bush administration in its defense of Halliburton’s no-bid contractor status in Iraq. To me, the rest is either a shit-poor excuse by Halliburton or further evidence of Bush’s ineptitude. (Hell, I already know that Bush is inept and I’m not interested in Halliburton’s excuses.)

And this gets at the real problem with Halliburton, Bush, and US credibility. According to the WSJ, Halliburton is setting aside $4+ billion in order to meet its liability with respect to a class-action, product liability, asbestos suit currently being litigated. Outside analysts think that Halliburton’s liquidity is threatened at the moment; according to the WSJ, it would take a mere $500 million shortfall in revenue over the next 2 quarters to force Halliburton into bankruptcy.

It seems reasonable to conclude that Halliburton is threatened by its asbestos set-aside.

According to the article, Halliburton has hired lobbyists to argue that it should be accorded some measure of Boeing’s or Lockheed-Martin’s status as ‘US military vendors which can’t be allowed to fail’ status because of the ‘unique’ services it provides the US effort in Iraq. The lobbyists are expected to argue that the Pentagon audit is unfair and that the $1.8 billion in billings (that under question) should be forgiven as an unavoidable cost of the war effort in Iraq.

It seems reasonable to conclude that any old $1.8 billion could help Halliburton relieve the threat from asbestos torts in the short term.

In addition, VP Cheney is a past CEO of Halliburton. Although he no longer works there, the WSJ notes that this situation leaves Bush open to any number of politically-charged accusations.

What do you, as a Bush supporter, believe should be done in order to restore both Bush’s and Halliburton’s credibility with regard to Halliburton’s no-bid status in Iraq? How can you fault those who do not support Bush when they conclude that either Cheney is a crook or that Bush is obviously inept? How can you fault those who do not support the US when they charge that we are in Iraq first to line the pockets of Bush supporters, and every other goal is secondary? In other words, how can you argue that the wildest-imaginable charges against Bush, Michael Moore charges, are examples of vile propaganda only and that Bush holds no responsibility at all for them?

Because it seems to me that your only answer must be this: ‘trust’ either Bush or the US system, or both. In other words, any objective analysis of Bush’s presidency must conclude that Bush is the most shootin’-himself-in-the-foot, inept president since the 19th century - or a crook (he’s a crook because the concept of ‘accountability’ is apparently one that applies only to others and not necessarily - rather, subjectively - to Bush himself or his administraton). No?

[quote=“pinesay”]

What do you want me to say? “OK Butcher Boy, you’re right and I’m wrong” … or “Gee, I didn’t think of that.”[/quote]
Well you could do worse than lok at Fred’s reply to see what might be polite. I’m not expecting you to get down on your knees and start calling me the messaiah…yet :wink:

[quote=“pinesay”][quote=“butcher boy”]BTW I think you need to check how you phrase the following

Perhaps I’m not seeing it. [/quote]
I agree Kerry’s position is a bit odd, but what you’ve written is consistent. I think you need to write it as “Coming down for abortion, but telling the pro-life crowd that he believes life begins at conception”.

BTW this acceptance that life begins at conception must surely cause issues for any support for the use of embryonic stem cells for research purposes.

[quote=“butcher boy”][quote=“pinesay”][quote=“butcher boy”]BTW I think you need to check how you phrase the following

Perhaps I’m not seeing it. [/quote]
I agree Kerry’s position is a bit odd, but what you’ve written is consistent. I think you need to write it as “Coming down for abortion, but telling the pro-life crowd that he believes life begins at conception”.

BTW this acceptance that life begins at conception must surely cause issues for any support for the use of embryonic stem cells for research purposes.[/quote]

Ah, yes, I see it now. You’re right, I worte it wrong in the first part. I meant to say (which would have been more clear) “Kerry supports the pro-choice side, but has said he believes life begins at conception.”

“Life begins at conception” is a buzz phrase that often makes pro-choicers cringe. It is a patend phrase used by the pro-life crowd to demonstrate a defacto act of murder. Why Kerry feels he had to say that (other than to woo right of center voters) is beyond me.

[quote=“mofangongren”]Hypothetically? OK, first I’d get a bunch of people understand education to advise me – i.e., to discuss the likely outcomes of various ideas on the table. I’d also need to go through the tax bases, and existing state setups – not all communities or states are alike in how they handle education.

It’s been a problem for a long time that the guys getting the education degrees in colleges are often the guys who are just trying to finish up a degree (any degree) after being an “undecided” major for 3-1/2 years. Pretty much anybody who’s gone to college knows these guys – at the last minute they opt into an education degree not because they like teaching but because they want to graduate on time. Screw that. There’s lots of people who would like to teach, would be good at teaching, but the pay sucks and they’d have to go through lots of certification courses. I’d deregulate a lot of the certification requirements (keeping in a background check just in case any horny Catholic priests try to sneak in). As with any economic situation, I’d increase pay to something liveable but also expect a lot more out of the teachers, including the ability to fire shitty teachers.

I’d fund after-school and other programs – the sort of stuff that keeps kids healthy, learning stuff, etc. America’s future soldiers and workers shouldn’t be fat losers or headed to jail. The cost in unwanted kids and jailtime just isn’t worth it. Heck, I’d even provide some funding to let home-schoolers get textbooks, etc. Private schools could probably apply for some kinds of funding… provided it doesn’t go toward S&M gear for Catholic priests.[/quote]

You almost sound conservative! :s

What’s up with the Catholic thing? I know you are engaging in satire, but come on, hasn’t there been cases of rape, molestation and other child abuse in the public sector?

The same ‘instincts’ that caused Bush to sit for 8+ minutes in front of a roomful of kindergardeners just after the WTC attacks on 9/11 are on primetime display again:

[color=red]
Bush Says National Sales Tax Worth Considering
[/color]

[i]NICEVILLE, Fla. (Reuters) - President Bush said on Tuesday that abolishing the U.S. income tax system and replacing it with a national sales tax was an idea worth considering.

“It’s an interesting idea,” Bush told an “Ask President Bush” campaign forum here. “You know, I’m not exactly sure how big the national sales tax is going to have to be, but it’s the kind of interesting idea that we ought to explore seriously.” …[/i]

I would bet donuts to dollars that not a few administration advisors headed out to the local Wal Mart in search of some Depends when Reuters printed this piece.

I mean, it’s ok to talk about a national sales tax, but Bush obviously shows he has no understanding of it at all, not in a wartime economy. It’s very likely a new and enormous black market economy would emerge overnight.

[quote=“flike”]The same ‘instincts’ that caused Bush to sit for 8+ minutes in front of a roomful of kindergardeners just after the WTC attacks on 9/11 are on primetime display again:

[color=red]
Bush Says National Sales Tax Worth Considering
[/color]

[i]NICEVILLE, Fla. (Reuters) - President Bush said on Tuesday that abolishing the U.S. income tax system and replacing it with a national sales tax was an idea worth considering.

“It’s an interesting idea,” Bush told an “Ask President Bush” campaign forum here. “You know, I’m not exactly sure how big the national sales tax is going to have to be, but it’s the kind of interesting idea that we ought to explore seriously.” …[/i]

I would bet donuts to dollars that not a few administration advisors headed out to the local Wal Mart in search of some Depends when Reuters printed this piece.

I mean, it’s ok to talk about a national sales tax, but Bush obviously shows he has no understanding of it at all, not in a wartime economy. It’s very likely a new and enormous black market economy would emerge overnight.[/quote]

Thank goodness Bush doesn’t know much about it. And that goodness Bill Gates couldn’t code himself out of a paper bag anymore. If Bush is smart, he’ll leave it to people that do.

On a sasy note, as a Chicago MBA myself, I can say with certainty that Bush had no economics or finance training at Harvard. :wink:

[color=blue]Post-mortem of the Radical Bush Administration[/color]

"If Bush can win reelection despite the failure of his two most consequential – and truly radical – decisions, he will truly be a political miracle man. But as his own nominating convention approaches, the odds are against him.

Why call these decisions radical? From World War I right through the Persian Gulf War, the United States had never initiated hostilities or invaded a major country without the provocation of an attack from that country on this nation or its allies. Bush changed that by announcing a new doctrine of “preemptive war” and applying it first to Iraq. Iraq was a military dictatorship with a horrible record of human rights abuse and a well-earned reputation as an international malefactor that had attacked its neighbors.

But the urgency that Bush cited for moving against Saddam Hussein was the threat he posed by his possession of chemical and biological weapons and his pursuit of nuclear arms. “Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction are controlled by a murderous tyrant,” Bush said in his major domestic speech justifying the war. “If we know that Saddam Hussein has dangerous weapons today – and we do – does it make any sense for the world to wait to confront him as he grows even stronger and develops even more dangerous weapons?”

Long after Hussein was defeated and captured, the American forces occupying Iraq have found no evidence of the supposed stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction. The rationale for a war that has taken nearly 1,000 American lives, caused several thousand American casualties and cost well over $100 billion does not exist. "

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A64017-2004Aug13.html

In point of fact, life exists well before conception (sperm and ova are not dead matter). Obviously this sort of life is not sentient, but it’s not easy to know where to draw the line for sentience. (Singer’s celebrated theory that some apes have more of a right to life than some infants, because they possess more self-awareness, at least has the virtue of being cogent.)

Personally, I think “rights” are legal fictions. Not that I’m not happy to have them, but I don’t see any good reason to extend them to the preborn. Actually I think abortion should be mandatory in many cases, and am sympathetic to infanticide as well. If I ever run for president you can put me down as anti-choice, pro-death. Compassionate Social Darwinism?

Thus spoke Jesus on post 666.

[quote=“spook”][color=blue]Post-mortem of the Radical Bush Administration[/color]

"If Bush can win reelection despite the failure of his two most consequential – and truly radical – decisions, he will truly be a political miracle man. But as his own nominating convention approaches, the odds are against him.

Why call these decisions radical? From World War I right through the Persian Gulf War, the United States had never initiated hostilities or invaded a major country without the provocation of an attack from that country on this nation or its allies. Bush changed that by announcing a new doctrine of “preemptive war” and applying it first to Iraq. Iraq was a military dictatorship with a horrible record of human rights abuse and a well-earned reputation as an international malefactor that had attacked its neighbors.

But the urgency that Bush cited for moving against Saddam Hussein was the threat he posed by his possession of chemical and biological weapons and his pursuit of nuclear arms. “Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction are controlled by a murderous tyrant,” Bush said in his major domestic speech justifying the war. “If we know that Saddam Hussein has dangerous weapons today – and we do – does it make any sense for the world to wait to confront him as he grows even stronger and develops even more dangerous weapons?”

Long after Hussein was defeated and captured, the American forces occupying Iraq have found no evidence of the supposed stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction. The rationale for a war that has taken nearly 1,000 American lives, caused several thousand American casualties and cost well over $100 billion does not exist. "

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A64017-2004Aug13.html[/quote]

France’s own intelligence believed Saddam has WMDs.
Russia’s own intelligence believed Saddam had WMDs.
Iraq’s neighbors’ intelligence belived Saddam had WMDs.
The UN believed Saddam was developing WMDs.
All of US government admitted it either based on evdience or a hunch.
Republicans knew it.
Democrats knew it.
The whole world pretty much knew it instinctively.
Most Americans still know it.
You and I knew it.

We haven’t been able to find a “stockpile” … So, if we do suddenly find one, … Would the war instantly become “justifided”. Hummm. Probably not. The agrument would probably shape-shift to something else … … some real creative … like … hummmm … oh yea! Damn Halliburton!

[quote=“pinesay”]
You and I knew it.[/quote]

Here’s what I knew in August, 2002:

[color=blue]"While claims that proof exists that Iraq has nuclear weapons are probably no more than cynical attempts to goad reluctant public opinion . . . "[/color]

spook (aka ‘Gavin Januarus’) August 9, 2002, Forumosa
forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopic.ph … c&start=90

Here’s what Hans Blix knew prior to the invasion in March, 2003:

"Only in three of those cases did we find anything at all, and in none of these cases were there any weapons of mass destruction, and that shook me a bit, I must say.

I thought - my God, if this is the best intelligence they have and we find nothing, what about the rest?"

Chief UN arms inspector Hans Blix on pre-war intelligence supplied by US and British governments which he had been assured would “be the best available.”

One man … Going down the road with his entourage in a caravan of conspicuous UN land crusiers, going to locations that Saddam already knew he was going to … Hummm. Yea, that trumps spies (“human assets”) of dozens of nations on the ground in Iraq. :wink: Mr. Blix was a political person with the lights of TV cameras. Competent as he may well be, he is not a spy. Spies get killed for getting caught in Iraq as many of our did. But then, when risk goes up, so does the quality of the information.

But then again, I SAY: What if tomorrow we find WDMs-R-US in Iraq??? Will it change your perspective?

Following on from Spook, a quote from the same thread:

Wolf is right on. It’s all about Bush Jr. finishing what Daddy started and OIL.

I can’t believe we are going to get sucked into it all over again. “Weapons of mass destruction, means and motive for using them.” What is all this crap? It’s all just smoke and mirrors, smoke and mirrors.