Vatican's Relations with China

[zeugmite]

As content as when they moved out of Kiribati to avoid having two China’s there.

[Mr_He]

@zeugmite

As content as when they moved out of Kiribati to avoid having two China’s there.

you don’t get it, do you?

the diplomatic relations are NOT with the vatican (a few blocks in the center of rome), it’s with the Catholic church, which is a religious community of 1.2 billion people. Please get your facts right.

[zeugmite]

No, I get it perfectly. As far as China (and most countries of the world) is concerned, any diplomatic relation with the Pope is secular, i.e. as the head-of-state of Vatican City. His religious authority over Catholics is existing but irrelevant. That is how the US, as a secular government, can have diplomacy with Vatican City, and not contradict the separation of church and state. That is also the reason that China wants no part in the Vatican appointing people in China without its approval, because that is a foreign government appointing agents. It has less to do with religion than you think. Serioiusly, China can care less about worldwide Catholics.

[Satellite_TV]

@zeugmite

That is also the reason that China wants no part in the Vatican appointing people in China without its approval, because that is a foreign government appointing agents. It has less to do with religion than you think.

Bollocks… Everybody know that China fears Catholic priests telling their flocks about real freedoms. The freedom of expression, where you can tell the truth without going to jail.

China doesn’t like the truth being told. China doesn’t want it’s own people to even see the BBC or CNN because they might see some news China would rather they don’t know about.

The Vatican has agents sneaking around then does it? You get more ludicrous by the minute there Mr Z.

[maoman]

@zeugmite

That is how the US, as a secular government, can have diplomacy with Vatican City, and not contradict the separation of church and state.

The separation of church and state is supposed to apply to the U.S., not its neighbours. :loco:

[Mr_He]

@zeugmite

No, I get it perfectly. As far as China (and most countries of the world) is concerned, any diplomatic relation with the Pope is secular, i.e. as the head-of-state of Vatican City. His religious authority over Catholics is existing but irrelevant.

The term “Holy See” refers to the composite of the authority, jurisdiction, and sovereignty vested in the Pope and his advisers to direct the worldwide Roman Catholic Church. As the “central government” of the Roman Catholic Church, the Holy See has a legal personality that allows it to enter into treaties as the juridical equal of a state.

That’s the definition of the Catholic church.

@zeugmite

That is how the US, as a secular government, can have diplomacy with Vatican City, and not contradict the separation of church and state.

The US recognizes the “Holy See”, which was defined above.

@zeugmite

That is also the reason that China wants no part in the Vatican appointing people in China without its approval, because that is a foreign government appointing agents. It has less to do with religion than you think. Serioiusly, China can care less about worldwide Catholics.

That way, China will never be able to recognize the Holy See. Sorry, but the Holy See has a fair bit to do with religion.

[Mr_He]

The Holy See conducts an active diplomacy through the Secretariat of State, headed by the Cardinal Secretary of State. It maintains formal diplomatic relations with 174 nations, 68 of these maintain permanent resident diplomatic missions accredited to the Holy See in Rome.

The source is the Wikipedia.

Also, by recognizing the holy see, you recognize the right for the catholic church to go about its religious business in your country per se. Therefore, China can’t recognize the Holy See - unless some major changes are made to religious freedoms in China.

[zeugmite]

@Satellite TV

[quote=“zeugmite”] It has less to do with religion than you think.

Bollocks… Everybody know that China fears Catholic priests telling their flocks about real freedoms. The freedom of expression, where you can tell the truth without going to jail.[/quote]

Earth to STV! That’s politics, not religion!

The Vatican has agents sneaking around then does it? You get more ludicrous by the minute there Mr Z.

So you would support China recruiting and appointing minions among the overseas Chinese community in Australia, eh? Perhaps even to carry out party business there, eh?

[zeugmite]

@Mr He

[quote]The term “Holy See” refers to the composite of the authority, jurisdiction, and sovereignty vested in the Pope and his advisers to direct the worldwide Roman Catholic Church. As the “central government” of the Roman Catholic Church, the Holy See has a legal personality that allows it to enter into treaties as the juridical equal of a state.

That’s the definition of the Catholic church.
[/quote]

Ah, He, but you see, the Vatican can claim whatever it wants to claim. The Pope also claims to be the spokesman of God. Do all countries recognize that, too? |…chuckles…|

@He

The US recognizes the “Holy See”, which was defined above.

You better check again what the debates were about dealing with this: americamagazine.org/reese/america/a-wilson.htm

@Maoman

The separation of church and state is supposed to apply to the U.S., not its neighbours. :loco:

And Maoman, I am talking about separation of church and state within the US. Read the link above.

[quote=“He”]
That way, China will never be able to recognize the Holy See. Sorry, but the Holy See has a fair bit to do with religion.[/quote]

Sure it does. Whether PRC-Vatican relations are established isn’t the point though, is it. We were talking about why China didn’t send a rep there – not to make two Chinas.

[dreamer]

[quote=“zeugmite”]
So you would support China recruiting and appointing minions among the overseas Chinese community in Australia, eh? Perhaps even to carry out party business there, eh?[/quote]

I’m not naive enough to believe that they don’t seek to ‘control’ or ‘guide’ overseas Chinese communities. Nor that they don’t try to control Chinese students overseas when they can. I’ve seen myself how Chinese law students were organised at SOAS in the University of London.

Now… back on topic…

Isn’t it a pity A-Bian can’t speak English well enough to do more than grin at all those world leaders he’s rubbing shoulders with? At an occasion such as that (if there is any social intercourse between the world leaders there) it would mean so much more if he could utter a few charming or well placed words in a language some of them could understand.

[Mr_He]

[quote=“zeugmite”]

@He

The US recognizes the “Holy See”, which was defined above.

You better check again what the debates were about dealing with this: americamagazine.org/reese/America/a-wilson.htm [/quote]

@Zeugmite's source

Many experts in international law, including the Holy See itself, would disagree with this interpretation of the Holy See’s status under international law. The Holy See has argued that even without its Vatican lands it would be an international entity with the right to diplomatic relations with nations. The Justice Department admits this when it briefly notes that Vatican City need not be recognized as a state in order for the United States to conduct diplomatic relations with its sovereign. “An entity need only have an internationally recognized juridical personality for nations to carry on diplomatic relations with it.” And it points to the United Nations, which has no land but receives ambassadors.

[Satellite_TV]

@zeugmite

So you would support China recruiting and appointing minions among the overseas Chinese community in Australia, eh? Perhaps even to carry out party business there, eh?

Australia is a free country and the Chinese do have operatives ther doing just that Mr Z…

Communism is not outlawed in Australia.

Freedom of expression and freedom of choice in political persuasion or religion is not prohibited in free countries… so I guess that rules out China as being a free country.