Vigilante kills boy...your opinion?

Discussion Open Forum
1

This isn’t traffic related…but it is vigilante related…and we’ve had a few talks about this on Vroom Vroom. This is an old story and I was wondering what your opinion of it would be. Long story short…There was a guy in a small town. He lived in a warehouse type place. When he’d go to work some local kids would break into his house and party in there…not all the time but about once a month. Too seldom for him to easily catch them…but too often for…shit…anything more than once would have been too often.

So after having the local police do very little to help him. The guy set up a trip wire and a shotgun. Long story short…a 17 year old boy was killed. The guy didn’t go to jail or anything…he went to court but they let him off. He said that he regreted doing it. So…any opinions?

2

Link? :ohreally:

3

No link to Mordeth’s urban myth, but I found this link to vigilanteeism (sp?)in the UK earlier this week.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/4474185.stm

This guy must have been really p*ssed off.

4

Well like I said…it’s an old story. Sorry I don’t have a link…I read the whole story a while ago…I found it very interesting so I remembered it. I’ll do a search for it now…see if I can dig it up.

5

In law school we read a couple of actual cases that were similar to what Mordeth described, which is why hooking up a gun to a trip wire is illegal in the US, regardless of what motivated the person to do so. Such a weapon can indiscriminately kill, or maim, anyone who happens upon it, including possibly just a couple of stupid or drunken kids screwing around. And even if the culprit that gets nailed is a burglar, that crime does not warrant having their kneecaps blown up with a shotgun, or getting killed. The law doesn’t authorize such penalties and they are clearly excessive. Such weapons should definitely be illegal and anyone who uses one and injures an intruder with it, regardless of who the intruder is, should be thrown in jail.

I remember a related case that occurred in Florida a number of years ago after a shopkeeper had repeatedly been burglarized through a hole in the ceiling, so he hooked up high voltage wires to the ceiling and the next time a guy tried to break in he was electrocuted. I don’t remember what happened to the shopkeeper, although I remember there was a lot of public empathy and support for him, but I hope he spent some time in the slammer.

6

Here’s an example of why such devices are illegal:

[quote]A village postman was blown up when he triggered a booby trap bomb set up to scare away burglars.

Greg Powell, 30, walked into a tripwire rigged up across a garden path as he delivered mail to a cottage.

Mr Powell, a Rhondda Cynon Taff councillor, was thrown off his feet by the blast from the device made out of shotgun cartridges, a spring and a trigger. . .

“It was an incredibly loud explosion. I was semi-conscious for about five minutes laying on the floor and was shaking with the shock,” he said. “I was hurt on my arms and legs when I was blown in the air but I’m lucky to be in one piece. This could have given someone older a heart attack or seriously hurt a child.”

. . . A father-of-two, 44, has been charged with assault and will appear in court at a later date.[/quote]

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/619861.stm

7

I think that anyone who has had their house broken into would agree with me that having your kneecaps blown off is a fair punishment. Maybe a few more potshots as well.

8

Sorry but I’d have to disagree. I have had my house broken into, was robbed of valuable possessions (including my beloved $2,000 mountain bike) and was mad as hell, but I don’t believe permanent physical injury or death is an appropriate punishment for burglary, although I wish the bastard who invaded my home and stole my stuff had been caught and sent to jail.

Hopefully you were only speaking in jest.

Moreover, as the above case illustrates, part of the problem with trip-guns is that they fire indiscriminately at whoever chances across their path, including the postman, small children and other innocent parties.

9

MT, I agree with you, boobie traps are stupid and can cause great harm to unintended people. I would never advocate setting one up.

However… I’m not even American, but if I woke up in the middle of the night, and found a stranger in my house, and I had gun nearby, well, I’d hold him at bay 'till the cops arrived, but if he even so much as blinked I wouldn’t hesitate. The security of my family would far outweigh any second-guessing of why someone was in my house, and if they were even dangerous or not.

10

[quote=“Mother Theresa”]Sorry but I’d have to disagree. I have had my house broken into, was robbed of valuable possessions (including my beloved $2,000 mountain bike) and was mad as hell, but I don’t believe permanent physical injury or death is an appropriate punishment for burglary,
[/quote]
What valuables do you keep in your home? What’s your address?

[quote=“Mother Theresa”]
Moreover, as the above case illustrates, part of the problem with trip-guns is that they fire indiscriminately at whoever chances across their path, including the postman, small children and other innocent parties.[/quote]
Postmen, small children and other innocent parties generally don’t break into property that isn’t theirs, now do they?

11

[quote=“Josefus”]
However… I’m not even American, but if I woke up in the middle of the night, and found a stranger in my house, and I had gun nearby, well, I’d hold him at bay 'till the cops arrived, but if he even so much as blinked I wouldn’t hesitate. The security of my family would far outweigh any second-guessing of why someone was in my house, and if they were even dangerous or not.[/quote]
Now add to this scenario that there is a good possibility that the burglar is armed and perhaps strung out on crack or crystal meth. You have small children. It all depends on the many variables that make up the whole situation, but I know what I’d be more likely to do: two taps in the chest and then call the police. If it’s his life or even the possibility that he’d take the life of my wife or child, well, it’s going to be his if I can help it at all. Generally, if someone is willing to break into my home, then I’d assume that he’s willing to do worse. I doubt I’d try to just “hold him at bay.”

12

Personally I think the penalty for intentionally flying through a red light without even looking should be severe…as in crippled for life severe, since you could easily be inflicting that or worse on some hapless scooter that crosses your path. So if someone actually broke into my home…I’d consider that a good deal worse.

I was watching COPS once…they got a call about a shooting…they went to the house and there was a dead body on the front doorsteps. The cops knocked on the door and someone answered at told the police that the man on the doorsteps was trying to pick the lock…or maybe force his way in. So the owner of the house shot him through the door. The police wrote down the owners name from some ID and that was it…I’m sure if someone called in with more evidence then they would investigate more…but to me it looked like it was case closed. That’s one thing I like about America.

13

Burglars should be beaten within an inch of their lives - then they won’t do it again and it would be an example to other would-be burglars.
But then, why should the public pay for their stint in hospital?

If you don’t steal, you won’tget shot at. Easy.

14

Postmen, small children and other innocent parties generally don’t break into property that isn’t theirs, now do they?[/quote]

If you had read the article that I quoted and linked to above you would see that you are wrong. Postmen do go onto property that is not theirs and sometimes they get blown up by explosive booby traps set up by crazy yahoos.

Below are some excerpts from a California Supreme Court opinion that explains at length why trip-guns have been illegal in England for almost 200 years and are illegal in the US. As you can see, the below case involved a 16 year-old boy who got shot in the face for trying to steal some stuff from a guy’s garage. Thankfully, judges in the US and UK have more sense than you and recognize that one should not have the right to use deadly force to protect personal property if ones own life is not in danger.

[quote]Don Ceballos was found guilty by a jury of assault with a deadly weapon (Pen. Code,

15

Here are a couple of other actual cases on point, and I have no quarrel with the reasoning. One cannot indiscriminately use deadly force on any person who enters your property even if they are not endangering your own life (including the possibility that the owner is not even home when such deadly force is used):

Katko v. Briney, 183 N.W.2d 657 (Iowa 1971)

[quote]Defendant had acquired a farmhouse from parents and farmhouse was broken into on many occasions. Defendant did not actually live in the farmhouse and the farmhouse was in deteriorated position. Defendant had put no trespass signs and had boarded up the windows. But some break-in incidents still occurred. To solve this problem, defendant set up a gun trap where if anyone entering a room in the house will be shot in the leg.

The plaintiff entered the house with the intent to steal some old jars and he was shot in the leg, which left him with permanent injuries. The plaintiff prevailed at trial and was awarded with $20,000 actual and $10,000 punitive damages, which was upheld on appeal.[/quote]

4lawschool.com/torts/briney.shtml

State of Louisiana v. Jeffrey Britt, Court of Appeal of Louisiana, 1987

[quote]Defendant, Jeffrey H. “Jack” Britt, was . . . convicted of manslaughter. . . sentenced to serve seven years at hard labor. He appealed. . .

Defendant was charged with the shooting death of his neighbor, Bradley Cavell. The victim was killed by a .44 caliber revolver which was part of a trap set by defendant to prevent forcible entry to his home from the back door. The “booby-trap,” installed by defendant, was set to discharge if the door was opened a distance of two to four inches. The victim’s partially mummified corpse was found on the steps leading from an enclosed porch to the rear door. . . defendant admitted that he was aware of the body on his porch. He claimed, however, that he did not know the victim was there until several days after he noticed the gun had fired. . .

we disagree with defendant’s basic premise that he was legally authorized to indiscriminately kill any person who opened the back door to his home a distance of two to four inches.

the conviction and sentence are affirmed[/quote]

okccc.edu/mludlum/documents/ … essity.htm

16

Bwahahahahahahhahahahahaaahh…

ahem hehehe hang on…

…pftttttttthwa hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha…

Oh…wait…he …he…

OK, I think I’m done.

Although I am fully against booby traps:

1). Judges usually have less sense than they were born with. For example, in the UK allowing criminals to sue the police for simply “catching them.”
Giving robbers minimal, if any sentences but a slap on the wrist coupled with a finger wagging “don’t do it again.”
Not allowing owners defend themselves in their own home. If they do, they can be sentenced to a stint in jail which, possibly, will total more than the burglar will get.

:loco:

2). How do you know if your life is in danger. If I see a burglar in my house he’ll get the tail end of a maglite around his face for starters.

FYI, MT, here is the definition of burglary (UK):

[b]The offence of burglary is contained within the Theft Act 1968
It is committed by a person who enters a building or part of a building as a trespasser with intent to:

* steal anything in the building or part of the building, or
* inflict grievous bodily harm on any person therein, or
* rape any person therein, or
* do unlawful damage to the building or anything therein

contrary to Section 9(1)(a) of the Theft Act 1968;

or having entered any building or part of a building as a trespasser, steals or attempts to steal anything therein, or inflicts or attempts to inflict grievous bodily harm on any person therein

contrary to Section 9(1)(a) of the Theft Act 1968. [/b]

So why should I not have the power to defend myself against this using deadly force if necessary, if I believe that my life is in danger?

17

Boobie traps are bad, and should not be set up for reasons mentioned before. Taking the law into your own hands is one thing, but setting up a “blind” trap like that is criminal.

People who break into other people’s homes are committing a crime which they have thought about previously and know that it is wrong, but decide to carry it out anyway. They should be killed with the most cost effective and pain free way possible. I don’t see a reason to pay for a failure of a human to stay in prison when we could be using those resources to look after abused children, homeless people, starving peoplle etc. who are being punished for not even committing crimes. Either that, or buying more stuff like tv and surround sound systems.

Also, for criminals lucky enough to be sent to jail, they should be re-educated, attend university level classes, and be taught to work in groups not just chucked in with a bunch of other criminals so they become worse off than when they went in. Criminals shouldn’t be beaten or punished, or told what they did was wrong. We have to teach them the right way to behave through good examples and they have to come to regret their sins themselves.

Another point: People should be punished for crimes they intended to commit. If you punch someone, and they duck, you should be punished for punching them. If it was up to you, they would’ve been punched. It was only through their actions that the “cime” was avoided. If you are drinking and run a red light, you should be punished as running over someone.

And the ones who can’t be re-educated and never have any hope of rejoining society should be used for scientific and medical experiments, to develop better medicines, technologies etc.

I just had a good idea. I should be king of the world. We just have to work out that thing about all of those innocent people being sent to jail for crimes they didn’t commit, then it’ll be perfect. :smiling_imp: rubs hands together and cackles as lightning strikes in the background

A vote against me is a vote for terrorists!

Disclaimer: The thoughts expressed above are not necessarily the beliefs of “tetsuo500” and should be taken with a big :stuck_out_tongue: smilie.

18

I agree totally. The world should be a perfect place and nobody should make mistakes or come from abusive homes or suffer any sort of emotional difficulty whatsoever… Life is simple and justice is easy both to determine and execute.

19

I think that anyone who has had their house broken into would agree with me that having your kneecaps blown off is a fair punishment. Maybe a few more potshots as well.[/quote]

Thats why I hang a sign up at my home…

I grew up in a farming area… nobody ventures into somebies home for fun… not unless they want buckshot or worse…

20

I’m not sure whether you are being sarcastic or not.