Speaking of which…when are you going to come up north and ride with me? I think it makes more sense for you and skylark to come up here since you both have much more riding experience than little ole me. And therefore would be quicker to adapt to riding on roads you’re not as used to.
[quote=“Ironman”]
Maybe it can be a natural thing when you push the corner speed a little, I certainly never learned it.[/quote]
When you lean to the right you shift your weight to the right…which usually puts more pressure on your right arm pushing the right handle forward without you realizing it. So by leaning…many people are actually turning the handle bar to some minor degree without realizing it…and therefore counter-steering.
[quote=“joesax”][quote=“turkey_dinner”]Next time you see a guy going around the corner with an upright back and a leaned bike… slap him in the back of the helmet for me. It should be the other way around.[/quote]Hmmm…
On surfaces with limited traction it’s better to lean the bike more than you lean yourself. Think about dirt bike riders. I saw a very interesting explanation of this on a website once. Unfortunately I haven’t been able to find it again.
Also, by keeping your body fairly upright you’re better able to see what’s coming the other way when you’re on a corner.
Racers do the opposite because the bikes and tracks have loads of traction and leaning over more means you corner faster.[/quote]
I’d like it if you could find that quote. When I would ride my big bikes on gravel or snow…I’d practically hang off the bike just to do a lane change in an attempt to keep the bike upright while changing lanes. So that the tires would have the most contact with the ground…and the most traction…or so I thought.
If you really want to feel a natural connection with the bike, get up to anything over 100kph take your hands of the bars and put them on the tank.
Get your speed right because you won’t be able to brake or blip throttle to drop gears. It’s best to pick a very high gear so the engine doesn’t brake you too much.
Now hang off the bike and turn it with just your outside knee and your leaning torso.
That’s how it works, your arms are only there as shock absorbers for making small corrections and for countersteering from a surprise of some sort.
You can read that guys that go fast rarely talk about countersteering because it goes back to the fundamentals of riding a bicycle. Cruiser guys always talk about it because their bikes are heavy and they’re constantly avoiding SUVs which is where countersteering is effective.
I learned this from sportrider magazine years back. Ever since, I’ve been improving my smoothness in corners and my accuracy in pointing out guys on the street that can’t ride well yet.
What do you think?
[quote=“turkey_dinner”]If you really want to feel a natural connection with the bike, get up to anything over 100kph take your hands of the bars and put them on the tank.
Get your speed right because you won’t be able to brake or blip throttle to drop gears. It’s best to pick a very high gear so the engine doesn’t brake you too much.
Now hang off the bike and turn it with just your outside knee and your leaning torso.
That’s how it works, your arms are only there as shock absorbers for making small corrections and for countersteering from a surprise of some sort.
You can read that guys that go fast rarely talk about countersteering because it goes back to the fundamentals of riding a bicycle. Cruiser guys always talk about it because their bikes are heavy and they’re constantly avoiding SUVs which is where countersteering is effective.
I learned this from sportrider magazine years back. Ever since, I’ve been improving my smoothness in corners and my accuracy in pointing out guys on the street that can’t ride well yet.
What do you think?[/quote]
By hanging off the bike…you only mildly make it turn. You HAVE TO counter steer whether you realize it or not for every lane change or medium sized bend in the road…especially at higher speeds. At low speeds I can take my hands off the bars and go around bends in the road by leaning…at high speeds? No.
Try doing your hands off steering through an S and see how well you do. Everyone who rides a bike countersteers. And if they are aware of themselves doing it…then only good can come from that.
[quote=“Mordeth”][quote=“turkey_dinner”]If you really want to feel a natural connection with the bike, get up to anything over 100kph take your hands of the bars and put them on the tank.
Get your speed right because you won’t be able to brake or blip throttle to drop gears. It’s best to pick a very high gear so the engine doesn’t brake you too much.
Now hang off the bike and turn it with just your outside knee and your leaning torso.
That’s how it works, your arms are only there as shock absorbers for making small corrections and for countersteering from a surprise of some sort.
You can read that guys that go fast rarely talk about countersteering because it goes back to the fundamentals of riding a bicycle. Cruiser guys always talk about it because their bikes are heavy and they’re constantly avoiding SUVs which is where countersteering is effective.
I learned this from sportrider magazine years back. Ever since, I’ve been improving my smoothness in corners and my accuracy in pointing out guys on the street that can’t ride well yet.
What do you think?[/quote]
By hanging off the bike…you only mildly make it turn. You HAVE TO counter steer whether you realize it or not for every lane change or medium sized bend in the road…especially at higher speeds. At low speeds I can take my hands off the bars and go around bends in the road by leaning…at high speeds? No.
Try doing your hands off steering through an S and see how well you do. Everyone who rides a bike countersteers. And if they are aware of themselves doing it…then only good can come from that.[/quote]
I agree that everyone countersteers. When something changes (like direction of road for instance) I use the bars to turn into the corner and right myself only. But when I’m IN a corner, countersteering would mean that I’m still on the wrong side of the bike and not relaxed. I figure when I put manly torque on the bike, my arms relax and my knuckles aren’t white anymore. I think I’m a bit faster, too.
Did you even try it? I mean I wouldn’t do it often in Taiwan because I’d have to be ready for hiding cabbage trucks most of the time 
but on the Hope Princeton Hwy or the Coquihalla Hwy in BC I had it workin pretty good.
Do you know John down in (South of zhanghua) Yuanlin? He just bought a VTR 1000. He can ride pretty well. Hope you dudes get a chance to play.
TD
Thanks for resurrecting this, Mordeth!
[quote=“Mordeth”][quote=“joesax”]On surfaces with limited traction it’s better to lean the bike more than you lean yourself. Think about dirt bike riders. I saw a very interesting explanation of this on a website once. Unfortunately I haven’t been able to find it again.
Also, by keeping your body fairly upright you’re better able to see what’s coming the other way when you’re on a corner.
Racers do the opposite because the bikes and tracks have loads of traction and leaning over more means you corner faster.[/quote]
I’d like it if you could find that quote. When I would ride my big bikes on gravel or snow…I’d practically hang off the bike just to do a lane change in an attempt to keep the bike upright while changing lanes. So that the tires would have the most contact with the ground…and the most traction…or so I thought.[/quote]I would love to find that page again and put it up for the merciless analytical scrutiny of Plasmatron!
But I can’t find it and Plasmatron’s alternative explanation is looking like a good contender: that you lean the bike over more to break traction while reducing the risk of a highside.
[forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopic.ph … 807#455807](Enduro, supermoto, hypermoto and pure dirt bikes
I did counter steer on my mountain bike yesterday just for the hell of it. You can really feel it.
There is a slight delay then you get kicked over in other direction to what you pushed the handlebar.
I guess the weight and stability of the motorcycle makes this more subtle.
[quote=“Ironman”]I guess the weight and stability of the motorcycle makes this more subtle.[/quote]Not on a Dio it doesn’t! Instant brain–lean angle connection. Fun.
Now I know how to turn left, can you tell me how to go straight ? I’m just going around in circles here.
[quote=“Big Fluffy Matthew”]Now I know how to turn left, can you tell me how to go straight ? I’m just going around in circles here.[/quote]Not so fast! You can turn left but can you turn right? You should be able to do BOTH before you even consider going straight.
I don’t know, the young people today. Always want to run before they can walk.
For straight just take your hands off. Bikes naturally go straight by themselves.
I’m not even bothering to re-read this thread…I’m actually looking through old posts trying to find the “Worst accident you’ve seen” thread. Anyway…just thought I’d pop in here and mention that I met a guy on a CBR 1000RR the other week who had never heard of counter steering…and had no idea (concious) of how it worked. I remember a few people in this thread claiming that everyone who rides a bike must know of it.
What’s counter steering???
Thats what you do in a pub after you’ve had too much to drink. 
Mordeth,
what advice would you give on turning in a street corner ie 90 deg turn at a good pace (so as not to get run over by traffic from behind)
[quote=“Jack Burton”]Mordeth,
what advice would you give on turning in a street corner ie 90 deg turn at a good pace (so as not to get run over by traffic from behind)[/quote]
Well, if you’re setting a “good pace” you shouldn’t need to worry about the traffic from behind. I guess if you wanted to make the fastest 90 degree right turn possible, you’d need to go as far to the left as you could in preperation for the turn then cut across almost kissing the curb at then continuing to go to the left of lane. In other words you’d be making a right hand turn from the left hand lane…which is kinda stupid and dangerous. You can still do it…you just need to make sure there’s no one close behind while doing it.
But other than that just counter steer hard and get a good lean…if your bike isn’t rubbing against the pavement then you aren’t turning as hard as you could.
P.S. Yes, I’m fully aware that his question is most likely a prelude to a flamefest…but whatever.
I think everybody does counter steer while riding bicycle or scoter but not many people realize that
and even less know the term “countersteering”.
I found that heavy bikes scoters require less counter steering than bicycles and almost everybody
know how to ride bicycle.
I found thet riding a scoter after long break riding only bicycle makes me counter steer too much.
Probably very few fully understand the physics behind all that (including me 
)
The best description I came across so far is a question and answer page for much more technical article written by physicist.
ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~fajan … stions.htm
Article (for mathematicaly inclined)
socrates.berkeley.edu/%7Efajans/ … ikeAJP.PDF
It seems like some people do not use countersteering at all, even when going faster than 30 km/h. But is it possible to steer without using countersteering?
Not really. You could probably lane change without it by leaning, but I don’t think you could take a corner at speeds higher than 15km/hr without it.