Wanna go left? Attempt to turn the handlebars to the right

Maybe most of you already know about countersteering…but it was my experience even back in Canada that many riders didn’t know about it. I met guys who had been riding cruisers for 20 years and you ask them “If you are riding 30km hour and you want to turn right…which way do you turn the handlebars?” and gotten the wrong answer. I often tell passengers about it and they don’t belive me until I show them. I’ve yet to meet one Taiwanese scooter rider that knows of this technique…although they probably all do it without knowing. BUT if you are aware of it…I’m fairly certain you can have more control. Here is an article explaining how it works.

Here is a video about it: livevideo.com/video/Mordeth1 … count.aspx

I've gotten a couple of PMs asking for a simplier explanation of what follows...so I thought I'd put it here: If you are riding a scooter or bike at speeds under about 10km/hr and you turn the handlebars to aim the front tire to the right...the bike goes right. Repeat the same procedure with the bike going 20km/hr and the bike goes to the left. Some people do it....and still don't see it happening. I suggest steering with one hand (on a safe road) and experimenting with pushing or pulling on the right hand grip. Keep your left hand .5 cm above the left hand grip incase you need it. You don't need to push or pull much to see an effect...and I'd say this is very safe to try...if you have more than a day of riding experience. I'd also think it's unsafe not to try...considering you'd be limiting yourself in your biking abilities and therefore your riding saftey. Hope I explained that alright. :s

[b]Everyone who has driven a motorcycle has experienced it, the MSF classes mention (but don’t explain) it, and motorcyclists discuss it all the time. But what is it, really? How does it work? Why does it work? All questions I will try to deal with in this discussion.

At very slow speeds we steer a motorcycle by turning the handlebar in the direction we wish to go. We can only do that at speeds of less than about 5 MPH. At any higher speed we do the exact opposite, whether we realize it or not. For example, assuming we want to turn to the right, we actually TRY to turn the handlebar left. This results in the front wheel leaning to the right and, as a result of the lean of the wheel, a turn to the right. This is counter-steering.

Why is it that we don’t get confused regardless of our speed? Because we have learned that steering a motorcycle is an effortless chore. That attempt to turn the handlebar to the left FEELS like we are pushing the right grip rather than pulling on the left one. It feels like that because the harder we push it, the more the motorcycle turns to the right and, thus, it feels like the right grip is pushing back at you that much harder. In other words, we quickly learn to associate counter-steering feedback with the hand closest to the direction in which we wish to turn. Further, even a little bit of experience shows that counter-steering is essentially effortless while trying to turn the handlebar in the direction you want to go is virtually impossible. Humans are relatively fast studies, after all.

It takes only a modest familiarity with a gyroscope to understand counter-steering - at least to understand how most people believe it starts to work. The phenomenon is called Gyroscopic Precession. This is what happens when a lateral force is applied to the axis of a spinning gyroscope. The spinning gyroscope translates the force vector ninety degrees off the direction of spin. Thus, if we try to turn our front wheel to the left, the force we use appears as a lateral force forward against the axle on the right side and this is translated into a force that tries to lean the wheel to the right. Similarly, trying to turn the wheel to the right results in the wheel trying to lean to the left.

But gyroscopic precession is not a necessary component of counter-steering. No matter how slight, if your front wheel deviates from a straight path your motorcycle will begin to lean in the opposite direction. It is entirely accurate to assume that even without gyroscopic precession, the act of steering the front wheel out from under the bike would start counter-steering in the opposite direction. This is a result of steering geometry - rake. You can observe it at a complete stop. Just turn your handlebars in one direction and you will see that your bike leans in the opposite direction as a result. [Please note that though gyroscopic precession is not a necessary component of counter-steering it GREATLY facilitates it. Indeed, it is the precession of the REAR tire that results from the momentary change of direction of the bike that ‘pushes’ about 80% of the bulk of the bike into a lean in the direction you want to go.]

In the case of a motorcycle, your handlebar input is immediately translated by gyroscopic precession into a lean in the opposite direction. Since your front wheel is attached to the bike’s frame, the body of the bike also attempts to lean. It is the lean of the BIKE that overwhelms the handlebar effort and drags the front wheel over with it - gyroscopic precession merely starts the process and soon becomes inconsequential in the outcome.

If, for example, you had a ski rather than a front wheel, the front would actually begin to turn in the direction of handlebar input (just like it does with a wheel instead of a ski) and body lean in the opposite direction would then overwhelm that ski making counter-steering still effective.

The ONLY WAY to turn a motorcycle that is moving faster than you can walk is by leaning it (if it only has two wheels). We have talked only about what starts that lean to take place. Indeed, all we have talked about is the directional change of the front wheel along with the simultaneous lean of the bike, both in the opposite direction signaled by handlebar input. So then what happens? [/b]

If you’ve read this far and would like to read THE REST OF THE ARTICLE click here and scroll down to the paragraph above the first picture: www.msgroup.org/TIP048.html

Thanks Mordeth…but I think many already know that countersteering actually happens naturally at a minimal extent(motorcycles more than scooter)…If you look for keith Code’s superbike school book, you will see all of this again!..cheers :sunglasses:

Ahhhhhh…now that I’ve upgraded from a 50cc with throttle problems to a rebuilt 125cc I too am enjoying countersteering.

Question:

Am I am taking a corner say at 60 km, is there is such thing as loading a scooter suspension? Yeah I can’t ignore the law of physics, but its not like I got some rocking cygnus with dual rear shocks. I’ve got a crap single non gas non adjustable floating like a caddy suspension.

– or don’t really worry about it

I’ve yet to meet one Taiwanese person other than those that ride big bikes that knows about counter-steering. And other than those that frequent Vroom Vroom…I’d guess the majority of foreigners don’t know about it either. Once you’re aware of it…then it becomes much easier to “flip” the bike from left to right. Which would help alot in emergency riding. Once I was taught about it…I’d say my control over my bike improved 100%. That’s why I brought it up.

[quote=“chichow”]Ahhhhhh…now that I’ve upgraded from a 50cc with throttle problems to a rebuilt 125cc I too am enjoying countersteering.

Question:

Am I am taking a corner say at 60 km, is there is such thing as loading a scooter suspension? Yeah I can’t ignore the law of physics, but its not like I got some rocking cygnus with dual rear shocks. I’ve got a crap single non gas non adjustable floating like a caddy suspension.

– or don’t really worry about it[/quote]

If you’re shocks were bottoming out…you’d know it. It would feel unstable and the rear wheel might feel like it was going to bounce. I’ve gone two up on a 50cc at full lean doing 80 or more…with no problems…so I’m guessing your larger scooter will be fine.

Most of the souped-up scooter boys do countersteering. There’s no way they could weave that fast if they didn’t. They might not call it by that name, or even be consciously aware of it, but do it they do.

Scooters are FUN. Small ones are even more fun. If people have never tried countersteering on a Dio or similarly tiny, quick steering bike they should try it. Just go easy! The tiniest movement sends you tipping over. It’s like a direct connection between brain and lean angle.

Dodgy suspension can mess things up though. The suspension on my Dio’s shot so it’s none too stable through corners.

Whatever bike I’m riding, I always take it easier with a passenger. Full lean 2-up is not an option. But that’s just me.

this video does a lot to demonstrate the second nature aspect of the theory behind counter steering… you do it sub consciously but once you know you’re doing it you can practice and improve… just another tool in the business of being a decent rider…

http://www.vsa.cape.com/~wayg/mrep/pics/csteer.mpg

Chichow - Yes, you can load the suspension. It’s not the same as loading the tires on a car, but if you’re brake balance and body balance isn’t too jerky you can load the front tire nicely before gettin into the apex. The thing is that scooters don’t get goin fast enough to feel the difference if you load it properly or if you just jam it into a corner…

One big modification would be your rear shock on your 125. Get an adjustable one so you can lift the ass up a few inches. The lean factor with the stock height won’t let you get even close the the threshold of loading properly before the kickstand lights up with sparks from dragging.

I can’t believe I am posting this.

Thanks Mordeth.

I used to love counter steering on my mountain bike back in NZ. I forgot all about it riding scooters in Taiwan. It would seem that I take corners to slow to counter steer well, however, since reading this, I’ve been having a blast.

Thanks Mordeth.

You’re welcome.

That’s the whole point to this thread. Yes, we all counter steer without thinking about it. But once you do think about it…then your concious control over your bike is raised…and in emergency situations where a very quick swerve is needed to get around something…no amount of leaning will help you…only a sharp tug (or two) on the bars will hopefully get you around whatever it is you need to get around.

I’ve been watching this thread wondering if I should poke in. Countersteering is only (in my poinion) used for evasive style situations. The problem with countersteering at speed is that it leaves your shoulders on the wrong side of the bars.

I read a few articles in Motorbike Mags back in Canada when I was trying to improve my riding. I read that you should be able to turn corners without your hands on the bars at all and that they’re just there as absorbers and safety devices. It said to squeeze the bike with your outside leg and pull it (the bike) over. The reason is that there’s more traction on the fat flat part in the center of the tire so it’s good to keep the bike as upright as possible and get you’r body low and on the proper side of gravity. I study these practices and it seems to have helped me.

Next time you see a guy going around the corner with an upright back and a leaned bike… slap him in the back of the helmet for me. It should be the other way around.

It is correct that counter-steering should be used as an evasive measure. Although, I have to admit that I am having a great deal of fun playing with the said technique. On the quiet streets of Dajia it’s a lot of fun and practice is what is called for I believe. It has taken the whole week for my brain to connect to turning left for right and right for left without having to think too much. You don’t have time to think when you really need to use counter-steering.

Mordeth, in this situation, has a point, use it or you won’t use it when the time comes. (Is that your point Mordeth?) :idunno:

And on a scooter? Your outside leg is right in the middle beside your inside leg.

I first came across counter steering while going for my bike license last year in Australia. Its bloody difficult because on the dirt where I like it best you turn the handlebars opposite to the direction you are heading and lean the bike into the corner with the rear end sliding under power. Seems counter steering is similar just at the start but your rear is not hanging out.

I may be counter steering anyway, I’ll have to get somebody to watch and tell. MJB?

That’s the (hidden) reason people say scooters are less stable. I’ve always wanted to put a bar between to the headset and the front of the seat. This will take away my step-through but stiffen the the frame up a lot. I can still put (short) things on the floor though.

Countersteering is a lot of fun… actually it’s just as fun to lean and turn late, same thing really.

One thing to always remember is to turn your head and look where you want to go and the bike will follow a lot smoother. Look as far ahead as you can.

Anyway. I’m going surfing for a week and then heading home to Canada for a few months. Take care of Taiwan for me.

Thanks for the Post Mordeth,

I have been aware of this for many years as my brother rides thumpers back home. I didn’t necessarily learn anything new, but I never really understood how or why it works. (still not sure that I do)

I am sure there are a lot of people out there who don’t know it and it is worth knowing. The video that someone linked was awesome - thanks

Another thing that I think many people are not aware of (don’t know if it’s been discussed yet) is that using the front break while cornering will pull the bike up straight. So when too fast in one of those corners, use the rear brake and not the front one!!!

[quote=“GongChangZhang”]So when too fast in one of those corners, use the rear brake and not the front one!!![/quote]Right, but not too much or the back end will slide.

[quote=“turkey_dinner”]Next time you see a guy going around the corner with an upright back and a leaned bike… slap him in the back of the helmet for me. It should be the other way around.[/quote]Hmmm…
On surfaces with limited traction it’s better to lean the bike more than you lean yourself. Think about dirt bike riders. I saw a very interesting explanation of this on a website once. Unfortunately I haven’t been able to find it again.

Also, by keeping your body fairly upright you’re better able to see what’s coming the other way when you’re on a corner.

Racers do the opposite because the bikes and tracks have loads of traction and leaning over more means you corner faster.

counter steering is far from an evasive action only technique… if you try chucking a bike into a high speed sweeper with a tightening radius you’ll find that at speeds over about 120km/h that no matter how leant over you are the only way you’re going to get your bike to go left as the corner tightens is to apply pushing pressure to your left handle bar… this is especially true for sportsbikes with clip on’s which have less leverage through the bars and much more taught geometry…

hanging off is a whole different topic, but simplistically, getting your weight off to the side of the bike lowers and shifts the center of gravity to the inside of the corner allowing the bike to be more upright for a given corner speed… if you take that basic equation and increase the corner speed to a point where even fully hanging off the bike is still on it’s ear to make the corner you get the reason why racers corner the way they do… on bikes with skinny tires and poor suspension or on crap (read: Taiwanese) road surfaces, it’s usually safer to keep the bike as upright as you can where the contact patch is bigger and the suspension is acting on a plane though the center of gravity… but this is far from a hard and fast rule and the right method depends on the type of bike and the rider’s habits more than anything else… of course there are loads more variables like weighting the outside peg etc…

on the street hanging off is 99% fun / pose value since on almost any stretch of public road (especially in Taiwan) a rider getting his knee down and over-hanging off like a prat will without doubt be slower than a rider who’s got the bike properly leant over, knee close-ish but not down, suspension stable, weight distributed properly between front and back and most importantly with fluid inputs and subtle throttle control and drive coming out the corner…

on my previous sports oriented bikes like the Z1000 I used to enjoy the hanging off knee down antics mainly because it was fun and also the hanging off part does really help in cornering safer and quicker within limits… BUT these days on the GS when riding hard especially in the tight stuff I find myself riding it like a super moto, weight up over the front and hardly moving around the saddle… so far I haven’t met a “hanger off-er” sports biker who’s still anywhere near my tail after about 10 corners… :smiley:

I solved this on the road this morning. Left turns the left handlebar is pressured and right is right.

Maybe it can be a natural thing when you push the corner speed a little, I certainly never learned it.