Wanna learn more about classroom management and discipline?

Work Teaching English in Taiwan
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Stray Dog: Maybe in your world view, everyone really is inherently good, and even those who act badly when they’re older were just let down by someone (a parent, school, society). Maybe what Adolf Hitler or Pol Pot really needed was just a cup of chamomile tea and a nice chat with someone who understood and cared and valued their megalomania as an expression of their creative genius and valid emotions.

I suggest you walk into a school as a substitute teacher in inner London and tell me how your liberal nonsense is working out for the students and society. This cult of self esteem is why much of the West is currently in deep shit financially and culturally, why East Asians increasingly have it all over Westerners academically, and why many Western nations are essentially going to be white trash, crime ridden, third world hellholes by the middle of this century.

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[quote=“GuyInTaiwan”]Stray Dog: Maybe in your world view, everyone really is inherently good, and even those who act badly when they’re older were just let down by someone (a parent, school, society). Maybe what Adolf Hitler or Pol Pot really needed was just a cup of chamomile tea and a nice chat with someone who understood and cared and valued their megalomania as an expression of their creative genius and valid emotions.

I suggest you walk into a school as a substitute teacher in inner London and tell me how your liberal nonsense is working out for the students and society. This cult of self esteem is why much of the West is currently in deep shit financially and culturally, why East Asians increasingly have it all over Westerners academically, and why many Western nations are essentially going to be white trash, crime ridden, third world hellholes by the middle of this century.[/quote]

I sincerely wish your students the best of luck.

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Likewise with yours.

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Mine are all dogs. But thank you.

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Ah, of course, because human behaviour and dog behaviour is analogous. I knew you were into the whole dog thing, but I assumed (wrongly, obviously) in this thread that you also taught human beings on the side.

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I have worked in the inner city. My biggest question is why you think the punishment/reward system works well there. Surely, you must know that students who get a detention are still committing crimes.

In fact, your argument is flawed further by the argument itself. You are saying (or implying) the environment is bad in the poorer inner city areas. This causes crime. Why, then, are we sticking to educational models that provide poor environments to children? It seems if the environment were more suited to children, we’d have far less problems. (Something research clearly shows).

I would never assume I’m teaching the next Hitler, Dahlmer, or Rosie O’Donnell. I think too highly of my students. If a teacher doesn’t think well of all his or her students, we are partly responsible if they turn out that way.

Faber’s book is probably fantastic. I haven’t read that one, but constantly recommend another one. I’ll try to dig it up somewhere.

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I’m saying that the problem is that there is not enough punishment or discipline and the standards are too low. One big plus in Taiwan’s education system is that discipline is stricter and kids are better behaved. Generally, everyone from administrators/bureaucrats to teachers to parents to students expect and accept that there should be certain standards and consequences. Such things are largely absent in many parts of the English speaking world.

The problem occurs, largely, long before they get to school. What we need to look at is how society has fostered family environments outside of school that have set kids up to fail and how schools largely have their hands tied in dealing with such children. I would say that’s generally related to lax attitudes to a whole lot of things these days including the growth of welfare and the breakdown of the family unit. We have built up a cult of self esteem without any real depth to that, where people demand and receive esteem without having actually done anything of esteem. I’m not saying that someone who does what might be considered a menial job should not be esteemed. If he does that to the best of his ability and takes pride in what he does, then that’s a worthy thing (though I still think that someone who is better should be recognised as such). However, we have fostered a society where too few people do that. At a deeper level, there’s an existential crisis running throughout society and deep psychological issues with a lot of people because despite the collective and individual egos being pandered to on a daily basis, many people actually realise that what they are and what they are doing (or in many cases, not doing, since they’re not actually contributing to anyone or anything else) is worthless.

People don’t magically become bad on their eighteenth birthdays. Such people are bad children who progressively get worse. From adolescence onwards, they need to increasingly take personal responsibility for their own behaviour, even if they had/have a fucked up family. You might not assume that your students will be the next Hitler. The way I see it is that some have the real potential and likelihood to become that way and will if we don’t demand that they don’t. A kid should be afforded basic rights as a human being, but in terms of being regarded as basically nice people worthy of a higher level of respect, then they need to demonstrate and earn that.

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[quote=“GuyInTaiwan”]

I’m saying that the problem is that there is not enough punishment or discipline and the standards are too low.[/quote]

I am not sure exactly how to reply to that, mostly because I am unclear of how you define those terms. For me, punishment, standards, and discipline are quite different ideas. This may be the case since I work from a Montessori perspective. A child is disciplined when he or she becomes normalized and can concentrate, focus, and do meaningful activities.

I think back at all my classes in Taiwan and the biggest discipline problems I have here deal a lot with children not being able to concentrate. They can’t focus on anything. Once you slowly (very slowly sometimes) build that up, the 99% of the problems disappear.

For me, I define the terms as :
Discipline: the ability for a child to control himself or herself to a point of being productive and active in the community (including classroom community).

Punishment: a punitive measure acted on by an outside force. Usually counter productive to real discipline.

Standards: expectations. One problem here is often not that the standards are too low, but that the class hasn’t learned to adopt those standards for themselves and still think it is the teacher’s standards rather than the classroom community’s standards.

I love this conversation so far, but my girlfriend just showed up and I love her more. I will say schools hands are tied more because it adopts a failed system as opposed to anything else.

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Puppet: My experiences in Australia and the U.K. in the government system (but not Catholic or independent system), and also in buxibans here (but not the public system) is that parents don’t teach their kids proper basic ways of behaving, yet they will not authorise schools to do so.

I just don’t see discipline as something that can exist without the support of the wider community. In an ideal world, that would work fine and punitive measures wouldn’t need to be taken. However, in many cases, the parents are far worse than the kids and completely antagonistic to the idea of addressing their children’s behaviour, which makes sense because they haven’t addressed it themselves up to that point, so they (rightly) perceive it as a reflection upon them in some way. In these cases, I think the best that can be hoped for is punitive measures. They won’t necessarily solve the issue, but I don’t believe society is really willing to address the deeper underlying issues of how it fosters such people to begin with. My issues with Taiwanese children are very, very minor compared to those within the British or Australian education systems. I’ve never felt physically threatened here. I’ve never witnessed the really serious, serial anti-social, destructive or dangerous behaviour here that I’ve witnessed in the West. I just don’t think it’s a matter of a system failing these kids, though that’s part of it. I think it’s also a matter of these kids (especially once they hit adolescence) failing the system and society and growing up to be major nuisances.

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You really, really need to read that book.

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Stray Dog: To which I could reply that you really need to read some other book or go and experience teaching people, not dogs. Neither may change your mind or mine because we see the world (and people) through a particular lens, and so all that happens is an opportunity cost is incurred. It’s like telling an atheist that he really needs to read the Bible, Koran or any other religious text.

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I taught kids for five years, and because of the methods I learned in that book, I was given the ‘difficult’ class–one that another teacher had given up on because the kids were so hard to handle or teach. We turned that class around in one semester, with sub teachers amazed at how cooperative, happy, and studious my students were. Like you, I started off doing a terrible job of keeping the kids in line, but, unlike you, I decided to look at what I was doing wrong, instead of casting the blame on those I was supposed to be helping. If you always play victim, then you’ll always be at the mercy of what goes on around you. But accept responsibility, and you put yourself in a position to take control.

The problem you have is that you’re frustrated because those in your charge aren’t listening and learning; it seems to me they’re merely following your example. You’ve been given some great advice here, and you’re refusing to listen, choosing instead to stick by your methods, which you have hinted repeatedly are not working.

Read your posts. Full of rants and insults. No one–human or canine–will follow such a weak leader. You want to see a change in the constituents, then you need a change of leadership.

You want your kids to listen and learn, then you must do the same.

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Stray Dog: Not at all. I’m not allowed to do things the way I would like to do them. I understand, and have written before, that I am not suited to teaching in many senses because my views don’t gel with many of the modern liberal values that people have. When surrounded by those who are permissive or who have certain higher standards, it’s easy to look bad in a sense and it’s useless for me to counter your anecdotes about turning problem classes around with similar anecdotes of my own (where I was given free rein, and I am being given a certain amount of free rein now, and I am making advancements with many of my students) or anecdotes about how people applying your methods have created a complete train wreck. This is because you fundamentally believe that what you believe is “good advice” whilst seeing yourself as open, when you’re actually not. I think to look at it merely in terms of how much the students and teachers get along is to miss the point. I had teachers who were really stern. I, and many of the other students in my classes, fought them tooth and nail all of the time. The teachers weren’t lovely to us. We had some complete hard arses and we hated them at the time. Looking back on that though, I (and others who went through that) am glad that it occurred that way and whilst we may have liked and got along with the “nice” teachers, we sure didn’t respect them then or now. I don’t see that the kind of liberal permissiveness you promote has produced successful outcomes for society as a whole. This is, for instance, why when I was doing my teacher training, the government school system was bleeding students to independent schools in my state at the rate of about 1% per year, and had been for over a decade, to the point where approximately 1/3 of students in my state were educated in the private sector. People, in large numbers, were willing to pay money to get their kids away from the kind of liberal permissiveness you advocate because they wanted discipline and standards. Do you know how the private sector deals with kids and parents who continue to be a problem? It kicks them out where they belong and replaces them with someone more deserving. A general doesn’t turn his army into a democracy where every private gets a say and should be listened to. That is leadership.

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What are my methods? And what is this liberal permissiveness that you talk about? My kids were clearly more disciplined than yours, according to your previous posts.

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I just reread your first post here and realised that you and I have different goals in mind, so I can understand now why you’re so adamant about sticking to your ‘methods’. It seems you want to ‘fuck with the kids’ for your own amusement, right? In that case, then, yes, that book is not for you, nor is leadership (which, as I’m sure you know, is very different to loss of control attributed to ‘discipline’.)

Why do you enjoy ‘fucking with the kids’? And don’t you think a teacher has a more important role to play?

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Stray Dog: In trying to make your point, you continue to focus on very particular situations that I have outlined, namely those where I was undermined by colleagues (including one whom my supervisor and the principal at my current school have issues with, but can’t get rid of) or where other colleagues who were/are supportive have expressed the same kinds of issues about some students or classes, and that the parents of certain students are very unhelpful, if not combative.

It is probably pointless for me to point out that in the schools where I was given administrative and collegiate support, where strict discipline was expected, I did well and those schools were happy with me, but in the schools where every little rotter was put on an even footing with everyone else (the kind of permissiveness I am talking about), regarded with as much esteem/value, and where rather than anyone admitting that some kids were just little cunts who fucked things up for everyone, and it wasn’t instead someone else’s (usually the teacher’s) fault, I didn’t do well and there was generally an atmosphere of being under siege at such schools. Some teachers had just given up on it largely and tried to be popular. In that respect, I was swimming against the current, so of course I had problems.

In my current situation, I have seen many students turn around because they understand that I’m not just some sort of foreign monkey, and that if they’re willing to give, I’m willing to give. However, I still have constant problems with certain ninth grade students (as do some of their other teachers) because they’re ill-mannered, but also because they’re under a massive workload. My class does not count for anything in a real sense. There are no grades from my classes. If I were under their workload and level of sleep deprivation, I’d probably see the foreign English class as an opportunity to sleep, have a chat to a friend or generally slack off too. That still wouldn’t make it respectful to the teacher or the other students. The glib answer is to say that I need to understand and value each particular student better and make the lesson more engaging. Here’s the real world answer: to these students in this situation, the engaging and valuable thing that needs to be understood is that sleep and chat is far more important than some foreigner talking a load of bullshit about something they’re probably never going to need to know.

One very simple solution might be to make my classes have grades that counted for something, though that would certainly have the potential to become kind of farcical, especially if the curriculum weren’t designed or tested well (and by emphasising testing there is a real possibility that it would become just as meaningless in terms of proficiency as what the Taiwanese teachers test in their lessons). The bigger answer to that is either systemic change (in which case, if such kids were allowed to do what interested them, or pushed into something such as a trade, everyone would then level complaints about failing the kids in anything from literacy to numeracy to civics to a general understanding of the humanities to whatever else was society’s current crusade, or there would be calls of such tracking being based on, or leading to, elitism), or if there is going to be a certain compulsory curriculum, then some kids just have to toe the line, sit down, and shut the fuck up. Maybe that’s a harsh way of saying it, but sometimes, that’s just the reality. This is the point though: these kids largely understand this about their Taiwanese teachers, and the more I have come to emulate those teachers into just expecting that there’s a particular way we are going to do things, the students don’t get a say in that, and if they screw around, they get in trouble, the more certain students have settled down.

There are a lot of issues with education in this country, but I would say kids are generally much nicer and engage in far fewer anti-social behaviours, they’re more studious (in a particular way, of course), and society as a whole has fewer really bad social ills than many English speaking countries. I believe this is because they don’t pussy foot around things in school here like they do in many English speaking countries (though the private schools in Australia are much better in these terms than the government schools, largely because their bark has some bite).

I know you’re going to refuse to accept any of that though.

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Did you even put the “fuck with them” in context? It was as part of a game and amusement. Firstly, do you really think by saying “it does really fuck with them not knowing where the sixth chopstick is” or talking about a game that they might lose, but might win (and when they win, they have it all over me in a lighthearted sense also), that “fuck with them” meant an attempt to seriously psychologically scar them? It’s all part of a context of everyone being able to play a game, yes, a game and not take it too seriously.

I think I understand what you’re getting at too, and that we do indeed have different goals in mind. You take yourself way too seriously as some sort of champion of canine, and now children’s, rights. Stop stroking your lance for just one second and go and find another windmill to tilt at.

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I think you’re confusing discipline and punishment. I advocate discipline, but losing control will never work in that regard, as it shows a lack of discipline yourself.

And you keep playing victim, blaming all your lacks of success on the system, or poor support, or on the kids (to whom you label with insulting names). Read your posts; they’re hardly inspiring, right? I’m not saying you’re a bad teacher; I’m saying your teaching would be much more effective if you exercised proper discipline, firstly with your own behaviour. When I rehabilitate dogs with severe issues, we have miraculous results every time, but whether the problem goes away depends almost entirely on whether the person caring for the dog accepts responsibility for (and therefore control over) the unwanted behaviour.

And I don’t agree with your glib ‘answer’. You’re attributing a lot of philosophies to me that I simply don’t follow. I guess you need to label those you can’t understand, right, in order to blame?

I do agree that, on the whole, kids here are far more respectful, quieter, certainly harder working. Though I’m sure you and I both agree that there is a lack of creativity, of free thought, of any feeling of personal power. I don’t know if it’s possible to have a healthy medium–maybe that exists in another country I haven’t experienced yet.

The comments that angered you were based on your whole post, not the snippet that made it sound like I took something out of context. You can get angry with me and insult me; I don’t mind. It’s one of the stages of accepting a new idea.

You’ll be fine.

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Stray Dog: If you say so. You don’t understand who I am or what I am doing. I don’t find your posts inspiring either, just a grab bag of modern feel good philosophies. Humans, including children, are not dogs. If a teacher, in this case me, can be a moral agent with free will, so can a student, parent or anyone else in the school. Maybe my methods work/would work if only the students, parents or anyone else accept responsibility and control over. Right back at you. Keep tilting at windmills.

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I am not sure where anyone is advocating a lack of discipline or standards. I can’t even reply to that point.

Stray Dog, can you explain the book a little more? What things does it say or talk about?