Welcome to Taiwan? but don't plan on sticking around

Well the welcome mat is really being put out isn’t it :unamused:

Take a LOOK

No, I’m not going to quote the whole thing here. Click on the link and see the issue and reply with your comments.[/quote][/url]


IMO, there is nothing wrong with what Taiwan proposes to do per that article. If we worry about issues such as reciprocity, at least from an US perspective, American students studying in Taiwan should not be permitted to obtain immigrant, let alone citizenship status, merely based on the number of years spent in Taiwan.

In the US, F-1 visa holders (students) are not permitted to obtain US citizenship based merely on a certain period of stay in the US. They must do something (marry an US citizen) or have something (some valuable and needed work, artistic or sporting skill) in order to apply for an adjustment of status (from non-immigrant to immigrant).

Can’t speak about the immigration laws of other countries, and perhaps Kiwi laws are less restrictive??

Kiwi law is pretty lenient on this kind of situation. Go and study and pretty soon you’re whole family is moving in to NZ.

However, don’t you think that the laws in Taiwan, in general, regarding citizenship, suck. This kind of thinking is bound to spread into other areas. It seems that Taiwan gives something to one group (those married to Taiwanese not needing work permits) and then instantly cracks down on another group before they start getting ideas.

I do see your point though and I am sure that I jumped the gun with my first post. I think this comes from the feeling of always being shot down by the govt. for being a foreigner. I guess that means that when I read anything in the paper about taking stuff away from foreigners I get a little :smiling_imp: and :imp: . They probably do have the right to do it but how soon before the same guys start hunting the rest of us? There I go, paranoid again.

[quote=“Boss Hogg”]ok,
Kiwi law is pretty lenient on this kind of situation. Go and study and pretty soon you’re whole family is moving in to NZ.[/quote]

That’s substantially more lenient that US law.

Sometimes I do feel that way. However, I have absolutely no desire to become a citizen of Taiwan. I would be very pleased if Taiwan would grant me permanent residence rights the same way that my wife received US PR. But in fairness, Taiwan’s laws permitting foreign nationals to be employed in Taiwan are pretty lax, at least compared with their counterpart regulations in the US. That’s why I say (to Americans) be careful when asking for complete reciprocity (though, admittedly, many of those asking for reciprocity would benefit as many of them have Taiwanese spouses).

Maybe… I don’t know.

I guess it all depends upon your long-term plan. While I expect to be here at least another decade, I have no intention of retiring and dying in Taiwan, and thus have no desire to gain ROC/Taiwan citizenship. As it is, I haven’t even applied for a jfrv, as I simply get a new ARC each year based on my new and improved contract with my firm… When I’m done working in Taiwan, it’ll be time to go somewhere else… hopefully we’ll have earned enough to live a while in Europe before heading back to the States.

Obviously, if your long-term plan involves settling in Taiwan, you would view this issue differently than do I.

Actually, once again, that was ‘a piece’ of work by the Taipei Times [edit: China Post] … What totally biased journalism … almost as if they had an anti-foreigner DPP representative over whatever huaqiao slave wrote that article. :shock: [edit: and it is a KMT paper!!]

This one gets the “Galley Gong Award” of the week.

  1. Nice how the article puts America, Japan and Korea in the same boat as foreigners from third world countries like Indonesia. Yea, like foriengers from these first world countries would like to give up their US/Japanese/Korean citizenship to come to Taiwan, the land flowing with milk and honey.

  2. Oh yea, the article conveniently left out the fact that Taiwan, unlike other countries listed, make you revoke your home citizenship before they let you apply.

  3. Notice how the article had NO mention of how many students were applying for citizenship and from what countries. We have no idea now if the article is just there as anti-foreigner rhetoric, OR if there is actually substance to the issue.

  4. As my wife is from one of those third world countries mentioned, she would tell you right away that she would never give up her home passport for citizenship in Taiwan. Taiwan’s passport is crap. She can go anywhere in APEC coutnries without a visa. Taiwanese can’t.

  5. Anyone who has gone to a school like the Shitda MTC will tell you that most foreigners from 3rd world countries are wealthy huaqiaos that don’t need to immigrate to Taiwan.

That brings up an interesting question…

How many “students” (I mean real students not teachers posing as students) would really want to become Taiwanese?

Give me permanent residency and I’ll be ok. There is no way that I’d give up my NZ passport.

Posted at the same time as Galley Gong and Boss Hogg, making similar points, can’t be bothered to change it:

The China Post article does not say anything about how many people have actually applied for ROC citizenship under the “lax” regulations. It also fails to mention the main disincentive to applying for ROC citizenship, which is that you have to give up your original citizenship.

[quote=“The China Post”]In effect, a foreign student who worked on an undergraduate degree at a local university would be able to apply for citizenship after completing the degree, Chien said.

And that, he said, was just not reasonable.

At present, over 6,700 foreign students, mostly from Japan, Korea, Thailand, Indonesia, and the U.S., are in Taiwan, according to Ministry of Education statistics.

While most are taking language courses, up to 1,000 foreign nationals are working towards a degree in undergraduate or graduate programs.[/quote]
So: 1. The number of foreign students in Taiwan is tiny compared to developed countries, and even compared to some less developed countries like mainland China. 2. Most of the students are on language courses, which mostly do not last long enough to make them elligible. 3. Of those students doing longer-term courses, a fair proportion are from developed countries like Japan, Korea and the United States. I can hardly imagine these people queueing (sp?) up to surrender their passports in return for an ROC one. Thais and Indonesians, maybe.

Conclusion: The number of foreign students applying for ROC citizenship must be tiny, so what is the government fussing about?

My bad: That is the China Post. I suspected that that kind of stuff would come from the DPP paper. Someone must have infiltrated the paper. :laughing:

OK, here is my redemption: An article in the TAIPEI TIMES about a DPP legislator:

taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/ … 2003054671

I’ve always said that DPPers are using nationalistic bigotry (and by Western standards ‘racism’) to fuel their platform. So, again, here is an article that indirectly lumps all ‘foreginers’ into the same basket with ‘Vietnamese Prostitutes’. Read between the lines here. In fact don’t read between the line. Just read them: What this Tang guy is really saying is that foreign marriages present a ‘social storm’ problem in Taiwan.

I’m tired of this. I really am. Taiwanese come to my country in droves, grab all they can, grab a passport on the way out, and then complain all the time how America is such a terrible place. They milk the benefits without any sense of citizenship, patriotism or responsibility (in general) … and also have the ignorance to call me a “waiguoren” at the supermarket in my own country.

It seems to me that the Tawianese are only getting a taste of their own medicine here.

Stop listening to your Taipei friends. The DPP has always been foreigner-friendly. Go to an election rally this year and see how you are treated.

You also do not fully understand the meaning of “waiguoren.” While “Waiguoren” maps to “foreigner” in the dictionary, it really means something more like “non-Asian person.” This is why you can be a “waiguoren” in your country. If you listen carefully, you will notice that the term “waiguoren” is very rarely applied to Japanese and Koreans.

Your comments about Taiwanese in the States put you in the same league as Jason Lin. Love it or leave it.

[quote=“Feiren”]Stop listening to your Taipei friends. The DPP has always been foreigner-friendly. Go to an election rally this year and see how you are treated.

You also do not fully understand the meaning of “waiguoren.” While “Waiguoren” maps to “foreigner” in the dictionary, it really means something more like “non-Asian person.” This is why you can be a “waiguoren” in your country. If you listen carefully, you will notice that the term “waiguoren” is very rarely applied to Japanese and Koreans.

Your comments about Taiwanese in the States put you in the same league as Jason Lin. Love it or leave it.[/quote]

Yes but we find blanket statements like the one you object to unpalatable because we feel people are individuals first, and citizens of a certain country second. Therefore, countries such as the US and Britain have laws allowing immigrants to become citizens. The Taiwanese understand this concept very well, and take advantage of it to secure a passport of last resort, having little intention of adopting the second country as “home”.

They are careful, however, not to extend any such rights of residence or citizenship to foreigners living here, who do regard Taiwan as “home”, and carefully maintain the distinction between foreigner and Taiwanese.

This is a double standard, and when it works to my disadvantage I am entitled to feel aggrieved by it.

Taiwanese with limited leave to remain in the UK whether through work, study, or family, are entitled to medical treatment, to have their children educated, and are not barred by law or operation of law from obtaining telephones, credit cards, bank accounts, buying cars or property - and indeed it would be contrary to statute to make a distinction based on race or place of birth. These laws were enacted by Parliament because it is believed that such a policy is right, even though the ROC government does not reciprocate.

It is clear to me that the ROC government feels it is simply wrong for foreigners to think of coming here to live, work, marry, and raise children, and that impediments must be placed in the way of any foreigner wishing to do so. Having lived, worked, and been married to a visa national (i.e. a foreigner with the tightest possible immigration controls) in the UK for four years, the difference is incredible.

Why cannot the ROC government implement immigration policy on the basis of passport held, like any other country, and not on the “all foreigners are scum” basis that they use now ? Ordinary Taiwanese people I have discussed this with are agog at the hoops foreigners have to jump through here, especially when I tell them about problems those married to locals have. They think being married to a local or having an ARC means life is a peach. For God’s sake Chunghwa on Ren Ai weren’t even going to give me a phone line !

Rant over.

Mod: “Chunghwa” is a proper noun !

aaaaaaaaaargh !

That was not a rant. That was a thoughtful post most of which I agree with wholeheartedly.

It is inconvenient to live as a foreigner in Taiwan although it’s easier than it used to be. Many government agencies enact foreigner-unfriendly policies simply out of oversight (like requiring applicats to have an ID) or increasingly due to the perception that foreigners need to be “regulated.” This is largely a response to the hundereds of thousands of southeast Asian laborers and immigrants who have arrived in Taiwan during the past 10 years.

This is a source of anxiety partly because of what I think we can unreservedly call racism directed at southeast Asians. But there is also the fact that Taiwan as a nation is constituted on the fiction that its identity as a nation flows from a common language, culture, and,ultimately, race. This model of nationhood is the German model, and the other countries have chosen this model including Korea, Japan, and Thailand also tend to “regulate” foreigners rather than extending to them the rights and obligations that should come with residency.

Countries like the US and France, as I’m sure you are aware, are founded on a very different fiction–that the citizens of the nation share a certain set of democratic values. If you share those values, you may be allowed to join in (become a citizen) regardless of ethnic origin. I much prefer this model of nationhood myself, but it is simply not the model on which Taiwan operates. When you ask to be treated as a citizen simply because you live here and identify with Taiwan, you are asking that Taiwan be a “contract” nation rather than a “blood” nation. Unfortunately, the “blood” model of nationhood is institutionally deeply-rooted even though I suspect most Taiwanese think that their country is or should be a “contract” nation like the US or France (at least for white people).

Please note that I am not justifying any of the inconveniences you mentioned at all but am rather trying to think through why things are the way they are in Taiwan.

oh look, its one of those foreigner friendly DPP types.


[quote]Foreign brides irk lawmakers
IMMIGRATION: A group of DPP lawmakers says foreign brides, particularly those from Vietnam, are abusing immigration rules and milking the system for its generous social benefits [/quote]


We’ve been discussing that over here :arrow_right: forumosa.com/3/viewtopic.php?t=9706&highlight=