Westernizing

[jdsmith]

@Tetsuo

[quote=“jdsmith”]The idea that Asia is “modernizing” and not "Westernizing is interesting.

Like I said in my post before the martyrdom began, I think one point worth considering is that the two may almost be synonymous simply by virtue of the fact that the West got there first. The standard by which modernization is judged is, at least from our perspective, based on where developed Western nations sit on the spectrum, simply because those countries developed quickest. If, say, China or Thailand had had a massive burst of development and become and stayed the most developed nation, the standards for modernization would be their standards, not ours, and we may well be arguing about the West Easternizing instead.[/quote]

Yup, and actually there are a few things, like Japanese punk, that are hard to peg…who influence whom? English freaks or Japanese freaks got there first???

[Rasputin]

Here is some more proof that there have been other forms of cultural exchange than Westernization in history:

geocities.com/CollegePark/Cl … babwe.html

It is also possible that Zimbabwe was a result of surplus wealth from the East African gold trade. External trade existed between Great Zimbabwe and Sofala on the southern coast of what is now Mozambique. Sofala was an important port where goods from India, China and the Islamic world were imported and then sent into the interior, which in turn exported products from inner Africa. Gold was the most sought after export, but other exports such as copper played a role also. Imports were primarily cloth, glass beads and ceramics. Items found at Great Zimbabwe include a glazed Persian bowl from the 13th or 14th century, Chinese celedon dishes, sherds from a Chinese stoneware vessel, and fragments of engraved and painted Near Eastern glass. Around the 14th century, Great Zimbabwe was probably in direct contact with the trading cities of the East African Coast. There was a sudden increase in building activity there at that time, as there was in the cities on the East African Coast. Some believe the decline of Great Zimbabwe during the 15th century was in direct relationship with the decline of coastal cities. Great Zimbabwe declined probably due to a number of factors including environmental degradation and a decline in the gold trade. The legacy of the region however attests to the ingenuity and political strength of its African ancestors, the Shona, and of Africans everywhere. (Information courtesy of The Shona and Zimbabwe by D.N.Beach)

The ancient Great Zimbabwe ruins

[Quentin]

[quote=“aubrey”]Here is some more proof that there have been other forms of cultural exchange than Westernization in history:

[/quote]

Really? You don’t say? As if us Westerners aren’t all a product of Hellenization, Romanization, and Teutonization. As if Japan, Korea, and the rest of East Asia aren’t products of Sinicization. As if Arabization didn’t sweep from Morocco to Indonesia, via Islam. Russification was rammed down the throats of the peoples of half the world’s largest landmass, which is why they write in Cyrillic in Uzbekistan. Many people in the West worship a religion originating from Semitization. Many Chinese follow a religion that came from Indianization. The whole history of the world is long list of Persianization, Incazination, Mongolization, etc. How many times were the British Isles conquered and had their entire culture and society changed over by invaders?

[Rasputin]

Thanks for supplying more examples of cultural exchange that has taken place. It proves what many of are saying: Cultures influence each other ad infinitum.

[jdsmith]

@aubrey

Thanks for supplying more examples of cultural exchange that has taken place. It proves what many of are saying: Cultures influence each other ad infinitum.

I think one of the fuzzy points of this thread is how much one culture influence another. I doubt it is equal. I don’t se a whole lot of Americans speaking Japanese…eating sushi? Maybe…singing KTV…few. Japanese cars and TVs…sure

But I see a whole lot of japanese eating McDonalds, drinking starbux, wearing “western” clothes, having western weddings, watching western movies, learning English…etc…

It would be nice to have a list done by smarter people than ourselves of what exactly was “exchanged” when cultures collided in the past…

hmmm…good thread rises from the ashes after all.

Ah KNEW we could do it.

[Rasputin]

@jdsmith

[quote=“aubrey”]Thanks for supplying more examples of cultural exchange that has taken place. It proves what many of are saying: Cultures influence each other ad infinitum.

I think one of the fuzzy points of this thread is how much one culture influence another. I doubt it is equal. I don’t se a whole lot of Americans speaking Japanese…eating sushi? Maybe…singing KTV…few. Japanese cars and TVs…sure

But I see a whole lot of Japanese eating McDonalds, drinking starbux, wearing “western” clothes, having western weddings, watching western movies, learning English…etc…

It would be nice to have a list done by smarter people than ourselves of what exactly was “exchanged” when cultures collided in the past…

hmmm…good thread rises from the ashes after all.

Ah KNEW we could do it. [/quote]

I think what you are saying is that it’s a question of quantity. Am I right?

The development of human culture has is an ongoing process. What we have today did not arise from nowhere. Things that people invented in 1960 are still with us, only in more evolved forms. The same goes for things that were invented 5000 years ago.

Many people assume that what they see around them is of Western origin. Let’s consider a few common household items that you might have immediately around you to illustrate that without the contribution of ancient non-Western cultures life as we know it, would not be possible.

The wheelupon which we depend for transport today was invented by Mesopotamians.

ideafinder.com/history/inventions/wheel.htm

The alphabeton your keyboard was developed by a Semitic people living in or near Egypt.

The glassscreen on your computer monitor would not have been produced without the knowledge of ancient Egyptians.

[quote]Computers use the binary system to work with data. All data in the computer is stored in binary code as 1’s and 0’s (bits). For example, the letter “A” is stored as 01000001.[/quote]Without the discovery of 0 this would have had to take a different form. 0 is not a Western, but Asian concept.

The paperin your printer was invented in China. The ink in your printer has it’s origins in Egypt and China. The printing process was also invented in China.

If you have starbux coffee on your desk, remember it isn’t Western as you claimed earlier.If it happens to be chocolate, think of the Olmecs.The sugar in your coffee has its roots in India.

Let us consider the hamburger for a while. Hamburgers are almost seen as a symbol of Westernization in some quarters.

The wheatcomponent of your burger isn’t a Western invention. The cheese inside it seems to have its origins in Africa.The same goes for the seedon it. The gherkins (baby cucumbers) seem to come from Mesopotamia. The tomato and ketchup can be traced back to theAztecs. The onion seems to come from Asia although Egyptians were eating them long ago too. Lettuceleaves are pictured on the walls of Egyptian tombs dating to around 2680 BC and appear to be of the Romaine or Cos type. We can thank the Tartars for the tenderized/ground beefinside.

What about french fries? The potatoesthey’re made of come from the Andes in South America.

Cornis another Native American crop.

Apples seem to have come from Khazakstan.

Peacheswere first cultivated in the East, some sources say in Persia and others in China.

Watermelonsmay have originated in South Africa.

Some other interesting facts about the origin of plants we use daily.

As for the Christian weddings, Christianity’s roots are in Nazareth.

As far as Western clothesare concerned, where would they have been if it were not for people from without the fold of the West.

The wool from which we make certain fabrics are the result of sheepthat were bred in Central Asia.

Cottonseems to have various origins.

This thread will never be finished.

[Dragonbones]

@aubrey

The paperin your printer was invented in China.

An isolated example or two of Asian inventions doesn’t change the point JDSmith and I are making, that the influence is currently quite lopsided. Personally, I don’t take any pride in this. Half the adoptions are negative, IMO. I am often the first to point out the mutual influence, and the inventions and cultural items of which Asia and other areas are rightly proud. But it’s not a two-way street, in reality. It’s a 1.1-way street. Oh, and Starbucks is an American chain, regardless of the origins of coffee. The zero comes from the Arab world, not Asia, AFAIK.

[Rasputin]

I think it would be wrong of us to look at the label on a product to say where it comes from. The Western products we are speaking did not fall out of the blue. They were derived from cultures all over the world. Give praise where praise is due. Without the contributions of people of distant times and places, we would still have been in the dark ages.They were derived from cultures all over the world. Give praise where praise is due

The zero comes from the Arab world, not Asia, AFAIK.

The Far East is only one component of the East, the Arab world is firmly situated in the Middle East.

The one thing that I will give the West credit for is the accumulation of scientific knowledge and the continuous development thereof.

[NeonNoodle]

The Babylonians used a zero as a placeholder. The Indians did too, but more importantly, they treated zero as a number in itself.

[Rasputin]

I’m still looking for a link that proves that movies originated in the Americas, but I can’t find one.

[Tigerman]

@aubrey

I’m still looking for a link that prooves that movies originated in the Americas, but I can’t find one.

History

[Rasputin]

I should have known.

[Belgian_Pie]

Anyhow, without the invention of ‘electricity’ non of a lot of other western-eastern ‘modernizationes’ would have taken place.

[Rasputin]

Have you heard of the Baghdad battery?

again

again

again

again

Egypt

[jdsmith]

Honestly, I really believe this comes down to a concept I put forward in another thread…cultural assimilation.

There will be a period, maybe a long one, of back and forth exchange, but one culture/society/nation (possibly) will ultimately win out.

That certainly explains the case of the Greeks, the Romans, the Aztecs, the ancient Chinese (to even think they are connected to the modern Chinese is blasphemy IMHO) ad infinitum…

“War” is a strange word…and maybe I am seeing “war” as “change” these days…

So “Cultural war”…fine by me. I bet on the West…for the time being, that is…

[Quentin]

Cultures also fragment. So one culture never wins out because it keeps splitting into smaller cultures. Take the British Empire, for example.

[jdsmith]

@Quentin

Cultures also fragment. So one culture never wins out because it keeps splitting into smaller cultures. Take the British Empire, for example.

OK, but the Brits basically kept their integrity, did they not? I mean at least until Yoko Ono…

Nations and political agendas may change quickly, but cultural philosophy does not.

The goddamn Brits are still the goddamn Brits.

[Jefferson]

You make many good points, Aubrey, which I believe deserve more credit and less petty scrutiny. Not sure if it’s been mentioned, but both medicine and mathematics were quite advanced in the Middle East and China for much of human history. For a period, the Greeks and Romans had the edge in certain aspects of mathematics, horticulture, and botany, but after the fall of the Roman Empire, whatever edge there was vanished for over 1,000 years. Great Zimbabwe was mentioned. Another fascinating state.

Come the late 11th century, Europe started to rise up again. Architecture, literature, and other areas began to flourish. Most do not know that the 12th century, not the 14th, was the beginning of the European flourshing, to the extent that it is called the 12th century Renaissance by modern scholars. Fascinating period.

Now, the remarkable discoveries of Western civilization, which have afforded Western nations unparalleled wealth, among other things, have come over the last several hundred years. But, again, we see that history is fickle, as are the lifespans of empires. Over the last several decades, Asian nations, in particular, have seen a period of growth and advancement unmatched in human history.

The modern mind tends to want instantaneous results and scoffs at the accomplishments of, say, a Samsung or Sony. People expect the world to flip flop on a dime. Whereas things don’t happen in the blink of a music video, they do happen, and at an impressive rate.

Civilizations pick up the ball where others left off. The Babylonians had their day in the sun. So did the Greeks. So did the Mongols, and the Huns, and the Germans, and the Americans. What’s rather interesting these days is the speed at which empires are replaced. I believe we’re entering another historical shift.

Already we’re seeing the global economy impacted by China’s moves. And this from a country which, only 10 years ago was largely 3rd world. I witnessed first hand how undeveloped China was in 1993. To see it now, you would think they froze time and spent 75 years getting up to speed. But they didn’t. A large section of the country did it in less than 20.

What this all means, well, we shall see. I for one will be quite happy to see the arrogance of the Western world ratched down a few notches. Oh, of course, we’ll see more anti-China propaganda, which is already becoming prevalent in the Western commercial media. Will we see one new dominant empire, or a mid-sized one co-existing with a few others? I guess we’ll find out over the next decade.

[jdsmith]

Civilizations pick up the ball where others left off. The Babylonians had their day in the sun. So did the Greeks. So did the Mongols, and the Huns, and the Germans, and the Americans.What’s rather interesting these days is the speed at which empires are replaced. I believe we’re entering another historical shift.

Ok,I get that Facism and Communisim have been replaced…who else?

Already we’re seeing the global economy impacted by China’s moves. And this from a country which, only 10 years ago was largely 3rd world.

Dude, most of China is STILL third world…and I cannot even fathom that you would argue this…

A large section of the country did it in less than 20.

I’ll bet you that section, or those sections were all close to major cities…and if you didn’t know, most of China (at least geographically) is not close to major cities…

[Quentin]

@jdsmith

[quote=“Quentin”]Cultures also fragment. So one culture never wins out because it keeps splitting into smaller cultures. Take the British Empire, for example.

OK, but the Brits basically kept their integrity, did they not? I mean at least until Yoko Ono…

Nations and political agendas may change quickly, but cultural philosophy does not.

The goddamn Brits are still the goddamn Brits.[/quote]

Maybe I didn’t make my point clearly. I am an American, not a Brit, even though the U.S. started out as part of the U.K. The Australians, Canadians, South Africans, Kiwis, etc. on this board don’t consider themselves Brits, either, though same as Americans they are descendants of the British Empire. The Spanish and Roman Empires split into dozens of smaller societies. Most great empires in history splintered. The Chinese Empire is an anamoly because for some reason it’s stayed relatively cohesive for thousands of years, unlike the rest of the world.