jdsmith wrote:
Do you agree that what we call Western civilization is nothing but the assimilation and development of previous cultural knowledge? Previous civilizations like the Babylonians that lost their hegemony over other states may have passed on their scientific knowledge on to new emerging powers. The West which is the present dominating power did not reinvent the wheel. They were the recipients of ancient knowledge on which they built.
Well said.
Nice avatar, BTW. I’ve met the man. Very nice person.
When he capped me he said, “Well done my son”. I really like his humor.
I think you might be suprised to discover that many Asian people have no idea that things like electricity, the telephone, film technology, areonautics, computer technology, the internal combustion engine… were developed in the West. In fact they quite often seem to have never wondered about these things.
[quote=“aubrey”]jdsmith wrote:
Do you agree that what we call Western civilization is nothing but the assimilation and development of previous cultural knowledge? Previous civilizations like the Babylonians that lost their hegemony over other states may have passed on their scientific knowledge on to new emerging powers. The West which is the present dominating power did not reinvent the wheel. They were the recipients of ancient knowledge on which they built.[/quote]
Let’s not break a bone patting ourselves on the back…of course “ancient civilizations” passed down knowledge…in the West particularly Inductive and Deductive Reasoning…as well as “real things” such as the wheel, the doorframe, and the plow…
It also would be hard for you deny IMHO the incredible amount of knowledge developed and brought forth in/from the West in the past, what…300 years…or even in the past 50 years…
There has been a spectacular amount of progress made in the world, and call me a WASP, but many of these things were invented/discovered/improved using modern Western techniques and methodologies…
In no way am I poo-pooing the progress made by dead cultures…I am only saying that these cultures did in fact die out…now by “die out” I mean the best and most useful parts of their knowledge were assimilated by other stronger, in some way, cultures which then outlived the source culture.
A culture is not just inventions and scientific breakthroughs, it is also economics, politics, art, social welfare, medical care, religion, warfare and many other things…
Being strong in one field will not guarantee survival as we have seen…
I hope you see that my evaluation of the West is based on its strength in several/many of these fields and not by some silly notion of Divine Right.
Bob wrote:
Clearly this is a weakness that the East is beginning to feel. The compliment that you seem to give China for staying together for thousands of years may actually be hurting them now…snuffing out dissent and curiousity generation upon generation may have mutated society into raising raising children that are NOT “naturally” curious about the world around them…however, they are easier to rule…
imagine that…
If it were not for ancient China, Egypt, Mesopotamia, etc. , we would have been in the dark ages now.
This I doubt. We just would have ended up taking a different route, that’s all. That’s not to say their contributions aren’t incredibly valued and valuable, just that they were not inevitable.
You know, I actually think that while you’ve got very good points, this argument quoted above actually belittles the contribution of every party throughout history to our present condition. Every civilization, no matter how grand, was the recipient of ancient knowledge and built on that knowledge. To place that as the core of all development and deny that modern civilization deserves credit for its own achievements implies that the same was true of every civilization in its given time, and I think that belittles the strides, small and large, made by those civilizations in their own times. Basically it sounds like your argument places the foundation as the superior and the building itself as just an add-on. I think both are wonderful things and both deserve to be marvelled at on equal terms. Neither would exist without the other.
You know, I actually think that while you’ve got very good points, this argument quoted above actually belittles the contribution of every party throughout history to our present condition. Every civilization, no matter how grand, was the recipient of ancient knowledge and built on that knowledge. To place that as the core of all development and deny that modern civilization deserves credit for its own achievements implies that the same was true of every civilization in its given time, and I think that belittles the strides, small and large, made by those civilizations in their own times. Basically it sounds like your argument places the foundation as the superior and the building itself as just an add-on. I think both are wonderful things and both deserve to be marvelled at on equal terms. Neither would exist without the other.[/quote]
Excellent post.
But you forgot to curse! 
I do not deny that the West has been responsible for most of the “advances” made over the past few centuries, but for those outside the West it hasn’t been easy to build on the foundations that they themselves built. Why? While the West was advancing, it was simultaneously involved in colonization,slavery, genocideand war against those outside the West. Under those conditions it was almost impossible for the non-Western worl to advance their own civilizations.
I think to some it is of cardinal importance to keep the myth of the master race alive though it be in a milder form. When some people speak of “the West”, they actually mean “the master race”. Therefore I think we ought to define what we mean when we talk of “the West”
Yeah, because Africa never had internal colonization, slavery, and genocide at the same time. While the Western world is certainly far from innocent, it’s also wholly unfair to blame only the West for the lack of development in other areas of the world. Africa did a lot to stifle itself. China started to fall down because of poor leadership, in part. Japan closed itself off entirely from the outside world. There are more factors at play than simply the dirty dirty Westerners screwing the poor innocent rest of the world.
Yeah, because Africa never had internal colonization, slavery, and genocide at the same time. While the Western world is certainly far from innocent, it’s also wholly unfair to blame only the West for the lack of development in other areas of the world. Africa did a lot to stifle itself. China started to fall down because of poor leadership, in part. Japan closed itself off entirely from the outside world. There are more factors at play than simply the dirty dirty Westerners screwing the poor innocent rest of the world.[/quote]
They way you dismiss Western atrocities is a disturbing.
What are those factors in your view?
I think it appropriate to note that these traits, colonization, slavery, genocide, are as prevalent in the so-called “Eastern Cultures” as in the “Western Cultures” under scrutiny. If not more so it might be argued. Think Japan, think Cambodia, think Burma/Myanmar, think China under Mao, think East Timor, etc. And these are examples within the last 100 years. Going back further I think more can be uncovered.
Outside of a few ‘Neo-Nazis’ who ever are you referring to?
In the ‘East’ the apanese have done well in propagating them selves as a “Master Race.” Certain Chinese groups also follow that trend I do believe. Korean culture is determined to believe that they are the 'OG’s" of the East. So lets balance things a bit.
Not flogging here; its a good thread. Just adding some additional perspective. I love everybody!
Also, Using Wikipedia as a sole sourcing can lead to trouble. It is subject to bias on occasion. A good reference, but not substantive enough for sole sourcing, IMO.
I humbly accept your advice concerning my sources.
As far as “the master race” is concerned I dare other posters to aunambiguously state whether or not they believe that their is anything inherently inferior/superior about any culture/race. Except the average Neo-Nazi, there are millions of people (in the first world and the third world) that still believe that their own culture is either superior or inferior to other races.
Not half as disturbing as your apparent entire disregard for the fact that the West is not the only place guilty of those same atrocities.
I am not dismissing Western atrocities - I’m simply saying that the West is not the only party guilty of those atrocities. Africa had quite the internal slave trade going before the white man came and made it worse. The Chinese, Japanese, and Africans have all undertaken some form of “ethnic cleansing” of their own over history, some for longer than others. I’m just saying the way you blame everything on the West disturbs the hell out of me. Yes, the West screwed things up real bad for a lot of places, but that’s not to say they were the only ones who did it. Who do you think sold the slaves in Africa to the Americans in the first place?
I already gave some examples before - China was held back not only by the unfair treaties and partial colonization, it was screwed over by a corrupt, complacent, and ignorant leadership (which led to those treaties - if they’d paid attention to those who wanted reform, there may have been a chance China could have modernized enough to hold off those foriegn attacks). Japan staged a remarkable recovery during the Meiji period, but had stifled itself prior through a policy of total introversion. Africa suffered from slavery and war on its own, before the slave trade went international and before colonization.
Yes, the West is guilty of screwing things seriously for a lot of places, sometimes deliberately, sometimes with good intentions but shitty or ignorant execution. But the West is not the sole guilty party, and the way you make it out to be, honestly, disgusts me.
In the links I provided for colonization and slavery, the fact that non-Western countries were also involved, is apparent. However the scale of Western exploitation was much larger than any other civilization.
For a discussion on how Africa was “stymied” in the 20th century, I suggest one look into the exit strategy of the former European colonial masters in the 1950’s-60’s. Seeds of Famine is one interesting book on the subject.
For all the good European innovations have brought (and that good is substantial). the misery and decimation caused by European countries throughout the world from the 16th-20th centuries cannot be overstated. One does not “cancel that out” or “excuse” it by pointing to Asian atrocities, which though largely limited to Asia, were also substantial.
But I think an argument could be made for the “lastingness” of the European influence vs. that of Asian evildoers. After all, many European colonies lasted not decades but CENTURIES. One does not put a bandaid on that wound and expect it to heal overnight.
[quote=“aubrey”]As far as “the master race” is concerned I dare other posters to aunambiguously state whether or not they believe that their is anything inherently inferior/superior about any culture/race. Except the average Neo-Nazi, there are millions of people (in the first worl and the third world) that still believe that their own culture is either superior or inferior to other races.[/quote]Aubrey -
And I am willing to bet that you are either right or wrong.
I personally think that a goodly amount of faith in ones culture is not only normal, but even healthy for ones life.
As the old moldiy goes - If its right, love it. If its wrong, fix it. If all you can do is bitch, then shut up.
Or something along those lines.
[quote=“TainanCowboy”][quote=“aubrey”]As far as “the master race” is concerned I dare other posters to aunambiguously state whether or not they believe that their is anything inherently inferior/superior about any culture/race. Except the average Neo-Nazi, there are millions of people (in the first worl and the third world) that still believe that their own culture is either superior or inferior to other races.[/quote]Aubrey -
And I am willing to bet that you are either right or wrong.
I personally think that a goodly amount of faith in ones culture is not only normal, but even healthy for ones life.
As the old moldiy goes - If its right, love it. If its wrong, fix it. If all you can do is bitch, then shut up.
Or something along those lines.[/quote]
I said “unambiguously”.
In the links I provided for colonization and slavery, the fact that non-Western countries were also involved, is apparent. However the scale of Western exploitation was much larger than any other civilization.[/quote]
Geez, I wonder if that had ANYTHING to do with the speed at which the world was moving then…do you think for a second that the Chinese wouldn’t have tried to conquer the world eons ago if they had developed the steam engine and gunpowder?
Do you think the Japanese wouldn’t have tried to conquer the world in the 1940s if they had had the a-bomb and supersonic jets?
Western “dominance” came at the same time as many breakthrough discoveries in locomotion and communication…hell, why not just blame Leonardo for thinking too much…
I would argue that the scale of exploitation is related largely to the use of the scientific discoveries of the time, particularly the weapons of war, rather than to the depth of evil of the dominating culture.
What’s strikes me as odd is this, that the West clearly has the edge these days, yet the desire to conquer the world has for the most part faded. Trying to encourage the world into a free market system IMHO is trying to level the playing field, not asking kindergarteners to box Mike Tyson.