What are the objective & legitimate reasons to support the Chinese KMT in Taiwan?

Not necessarily about politics. Can extrapolate. I want to know what people living here think. Specifically not wanting this in the politics forum. Living in Taiwan, what differences do you see, if any? CKMT / DPP.

Even if one thinks political party discussions belong in the political category, reality is it affects all our lives. On the ground. Thus, living in taiwan. I want to know what every John and Jane Doe think in this community. It’s not just politics, but relates to our food, schools, roads and frankly the reality of becoming China or war. These are real life “living in taiwan” things that are extremely important.

This may be more relatable for those that have lived here through multiple governemnt shifts. But that isn’t the metric. What do we notice? Everybody. The tourist here 2 days to the military officers with a family that is 80 years old. Today, there is a proper range .

What differences do you see when things in government change? I was a teacher once upon a time, and I noticed fellow teachers complaining about how books changed based on who is in power. Which seems really wild. But, sadly, real. Brainwashing kids seems to be a thing that should differentiate us from China. It, clearly isn’t. But has improved in Taiwan. At least in my opinion

I come from an approach that everything is corrupt. Because it’s what I see daily. So I dont much differentiate between political parties in terms of low level corruption and theft of funds. That’s par for the course in Taiwan. All sides are guilty. Frankly, society is guilty as well. Everyone scrambling to get a peice of the pie and work less. It’s a common issue.

I’m wondering, specifically, with the China Kuo Ming Tan party, what aspects are admirable? What points are worthy of such an administraion? What justifies voting for them? In 2024. Our last China KMT president has openly stated we need to become China. Multiple times. Is this the direction we should go?

I truly want to know, on an individual basis, what makes people gravitate towards the China KMT party? Are there actual legitimate reasons they might be preferable instead of supporting taiwan? What are they? Is the DPP not creating enough short term wealth, despite still making our country very rich? Is it greed, a want for more?

Note, this is about 2024 China Kuo Ming Tan (CKMT), not the old party that was at war with China (PRC). More about the new age of them wanting to align with the PRC. This China KMT I find terrifying, and I cannot understand why people support it. However, I truly want to understand why people can still support such an entity. Outside of ignorance or treason, I really do not understand.

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Literally almost every sentence written in this post is political.

This is quite literally the only non-political sentence in the entire post. And it still contains the word politics.

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I feel that this is a trap… but I’ll persevere.

Simplistic version:

  • Due to the, largely, two-party system, some pro-KMT advocates might be compared to never-Trumpers (TDS, Trump derangement syndrome) or those who balk at the bumbling “Crooked Biden” gaffes. (I count myself partly in this camp, since I’ve seen the “sausage factory” of 賴清德’s work in 臺南).

Nuanced version:

  • Those of us who work in higher education, or in education in general, have come to rely on the (C)KMT for their support. We miss cross-strait, bilateral interactions. I still collaborate with mainland Chinese scholars, but the DPP has rendered most relationships toxic.
  • Many others I’ve spoken to have voiced their concern regarding the repercussions of de jure independence. 臺北 should be the capital, but that’s VERY old school.
  • DPP politicians have kept very few meaningful promises. Will we be nuclear free by 2025? 蔡英文 shrugs her shoulders and passes that promise on to her predecessor. Bilingual by 2030? Maybe 2300 is more realistic. Just a bunch of empty and meaningless promises.
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Victim shaming much? What did DPP do wrong there except not bending over?

No one in power is pursuing de jure independence. At least not any time soon nor unilaterally.

They kept the ones that matter. Also bilingual 2030 was a marketing term from the beginning. It was never about being bilingual just to support English education, and that they did. The economy is strong in almost any measure that matters, all while reducing dependence on China and Taiwan is now a household name. Those don’t sound meaningless to me.

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My aunt was a schoolteacher and the KMT would’ve saved her pension.

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In this scenario, who is the victim? Our universities benefitted from better cross-strait collaboration. I should know, as I’m in a position that is directly influenced by international exchange. The “wait and see” approach has been forced upon us, even when some of the best “mainlanders” are locals working abroad.

This was added to address @Explant 's point. Moreover, some of the deep green seem to be pushing in this direction. The contemptible 賴er (liar)pushes the envelope in this way

  1. Yeah, but how much money and time were wasted on these initiatives? A LOT. If you’re not in the circle of (negative) influence, you may be unaware
  2. The focus back to English education rather than bilingual targets was due to a “slap in the face” reality check. Many DPP morons still hold on to this 2030 dream/nightmare.
  3. What relevance does the economy play vis-à-vis this point? MIT has flourished under both parties. This is moot and unconvincing.

I think this is why many people voted for the white party and why they have won a sizable minority in the legislature even if there’s no presidential win.

I don’t think nuclear free Taiwan is realistic, because green energy isn’t going to power TSMC, nVidia, AI, or whatever. If Taiwan becomes completely agrarian and has no industry to speak of, we can use all green energy, but as it stands, nuclear free Taiwan means reliance on imported fossil fuel. Only a fool thinks this is a solution. It would also result in Taipower becoming further and further financially insolvent and huge increase in our electricity rate (which does get people really angry). 4th nuclear station takes so long to build precisely because of all the BS politics.

DPP in power did see better welfare for the disadvantaged, as well as measures like TPASS which helps the disadvantaged (not relying on cars/scooter can really reduce the cost of living a lot as well as reducing traffic).

Regardless of who’s in power, the traffic is a mess. Neither governments wants to do anything about traffic law enforcement or improve pedestrian safety. I think the solution is massive reduction in vehicles on the road (both scooter and cars), but well off but not quite rich people would HATE that.

On the other hand while Chen was in power, minimum wage was stagnant through his entire term, while under president Ma it was raised slowly.

As much as anyone thinks China’s evil or CCP or whatever, Taiwan needs bilateral trade with China. DPP makes that very hard.

It’s why a lot of younger people who aren’t pensioners voted for Ko. Neither KMT or DPP has offered sensible solutions and they’re only getting votes from old people. Problem is houkou system makes it very, very hard for young people to vote due to landlords not letting students/young professionals to register houkou at their rented place. This needs to end. A normal red book lease agreement should absolutely be sufficient. Otherwise they have to travel, often to the south (90% of Taipei is from the south, or at least until recently), in order to vote.

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Why is it important to collaborate with Chinese scholars specifically? We collaborate with several scholars from other countries (mostly Japan).

I don’t think it’s collaborating with Chinese scholars specifically, but being shut out of being able to do so is not good, because Chinese offers their own unique perspective.

I think that depends on your study subject. Sure, if you are doing Chinese studies or a related field, it matters. But for other subjects, your collaborator’s nationality is quite irrelevant.

But if you want to figure out how to deploy infrastructure on a massive scale, at a low cost, in a short time, China seems to have it down to a T. They are not the absolute best, but they are good enough, and at a very good price too.

The US could certainly use Chinese academics to help them build massive quantities of high speed rail network in 10 years, but they’re closed to Chinese input nor will they adopt their method.

I left academia 7 years ago now, but funding and students would be my guess.

My position along with several others at a prominent semi research group at NTHU was funded by a 1000 talents grant through a Chinese university. We also had a lot of students coming from China.

We had lots of colabs with the US, Japan and EU research groups. Students would sometimes go there for a year, but we never had any come to Taiwan. Or any funding come our way as it did from China.

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Yes, so did you get the point? A discussion on this affects all of us in every day life. Not about a political discussion about Li vs Chen vs vote for who.

That is to say, come from the other direction. The human side, not the “industry” (meaning being in the industry) side. That was my point.

Let’s discuss real people’s actual realities based on what the CKMT/DPP are doing, or have done, not just political stats and predictions. Eg. Living in Taiwan, how does it affect us? For example, we hear this type of talk on the daily.

This is largely the type of talk that seems to justify the CKMT. Let’s discuss this aspect of why people think they are good, or not, and go from there :slight_smile:

Edit. They still have awesome pensions. I know a lot that complain like your aunt as well. Some even renounced citizenship to become taiwanese so they could get a pension (a far deeper problem is foreigners not being allowed into certain programs despite decades of time and investment into the country). This issue is deeper, though. Government servents are still compensated very well. It seems more like a wealth surplus to the few, rather than improving anything. Military, police, teachers etc etc all complain about the same aspect, yet they seem to be clear that may not do better in another I dusty and still “stick around” :roll_eyes: their privilege is also basically as good as it gets here. Loans, interest, advantages etc.

A discussion on how politics/policy/political figure/political organisation affects you is inherently a political discussion. It’s a textbook example of a political discussion

This is still a political discussion. We talk about how their policies affect us all the time.

Your post literally asks for reasons one would support the KMT.

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  1. Some people truly believe that the Republic of China is the true manifestation of the ideals of the Chinese revolution. Not so many of these around now.
  2. Civil servants, teachers, police, and military tend to support the KMT because the KMT created a socialist state for them with generous benefits. They think the KMT is more likely to fight so that they can keep those benefits.
  3. There are business owners who like the KMT’s business-friendly policies.
  4. Employees of state-owned enterprises
  5. Many northern Hakkas because they trust the KMT to keep the Minnan in line.
  6. Indigenous Taiwanese–same as Hakkas in north but also complicated by patronage systems set up by KMT that benefit elites.
  7. People nostalgic for the good old high growth days back in the 1970s and 1980s when anyone had a chance to get rich if they worked hard.
  8. People involved in other clientist/patronage networks on local level
  9. Religious conservatives

Many people split their vote. In national elections, they may vote for the DPP. But in local elections, they are happy to vote for KMT candidates they have known all their lives.

There are plenty of decent people who vote for the KMT consistently. The KMT appeals to small ‘c’ conservatives with its old-timey, always been around vibe. Next year we become a hyper-aged society. Old folks are super important politically. Like everywhere, they vote. Religiously.

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Have you looked at the stats comparing what happened during the Ma (hand the keys to the PRC!) era and the Tsai era? I’d be curious to see actual numbers instead of woolly assertions of equivalence.

Guy

Really? Now refer to KMT as CKMT? That type of attitude and reference does not lend itself to objective and open discussion.

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The name of the party in English is the Chinese Nationalist Party or the Kuomintang of China.

I think it is abundantly clear that @Explant thinks the KMT (or whatever he wants to call it) is . . . not a great organization for the people of Taiwan right now.

I understand his query as: please make the case for why the KMT (or whatever he wants to call it) is good for the people of Taiwan.

Aside from @foc 's nuanced post, what I gather from this thread is: the KMT supports integration with the PRC and that helps certain private universities find students and / or funding from the PRC; the KMT supports its iron bowl public sector workers / party members so it is good at ensuring handsome pensions for this group; and . . . some people—ok at least one person—does not like William Lai. This last point does not seem like an especially compelling defence of the KMT (or whatever @Explant wants to call it).

Guy

I’m pretty neutral on dpp but I find their independence stance and anti nuclear stance to be disturbing. Otherwise, not much difference.

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