What do you think about the Rants & Raves Forum?

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21

Hi all,

I’m sorry to disagree with Jody’s post, but I don’t think it objectively or factually addresses the issues.

The reason I started the Musasa = Pompous Hypocrite thread is quite a story, but it has nothing to do with how his insults to me led me to start a thread on him. Its only when he behaved contrary to how he described himself in other posts did I start that thread.

Contrary to how Jody inferred in her above post, I started it because I had higher expectations of Musasa. The first post I read of Musasa’s described his experience with moderating boards and showed he knew better than to lower himself into crass comments and poor manners. As I read more of Musasa’s posts I found that he proved to be a very, very different person than he lead me to believe in that first post I read.

In the posts that covered Musasa’s and Non-Teacher’s arguments, I did not think that their arguments were worthwhile when it comes to taking a pro or con position. Does Taiwan have beautiful scenery? Is Taiwan also an eyesore? Yes is the correct answer for both, because there would have been truth in either answer. No one have to write very much to prove either. So I did not feel emotionally compelled to write on that thread.

But when Musasa started with jibes, the insults, and told Non-Teacher to go back where he came from, even offering to arrange airline tickets, for me that was enough. He grossly contradicted himself, so I started a thread. And in that thread, I cited the evidence needed to prove my point. Was it a nice thing to do? No. However I grew tired of reading insult after insult accompanied by how he is such a great guy and I thought that Musasa could use some of his own medicine. Near the end of the thread I created on Musasa, he agreed with me that he had been crass, but not without the last parting shot “I don’t want to interact with people like you”, with which Musasa stayed true to form, saying that he’s better than others but not acting like it.

I did not make that thread because he disagreed with me. I made it becuase he was claiming to be one thing and acting like another. That’s it and nothing else. Personally, I don’t have any kind emphatic dislike for him. I just wanted to show the facts.

This leads me into another point, I don’t understand how you, Jody, could defend him when he does this, unless he’s your friend or you share the some of the same opinions he’s thrusted onto these boards.

On the same note, I also don’t understand how you defend Bu Lai En. I don’t think Bu Lai En is a bad guy either, and I can understand how he could ask why are negative threads/comments about teachers tolerated because he is teaching. I wonder this because hasn’t he too had some negative comments or negative threads about others? Didn’t he call somebody a “prick” in one of his posts? He complains that there are negative threads on English teachers, but didn’t he start a negative thread about Warners? (BTY, there aren’t any negative threads on English teachers, there’s only one about a bushiban where the topic meandered into the subject of English teachers.) I’m sure that the people who work at Warner aren’t happy to know its there, just like Bu Lai En isn’t happy to know that there may be some people who hold negative views about English teachers.

I want to get this straight too. I do not dislike Bu Lai En. In fact, I regularly appreciate his input on these boards.

I think he has had some very positive comments on many of the boards and I also think that he has learned to be more careful, but I don’t see how you can say he and Musasa are categorically the good guys and the rest are bad apples.

In fact, I see now that my Musasa thread has been removed but the Non-Teacher thread remains. I was more direct in the title of my thread, but the underlying element in the Non Teacher is basically the same, which is (I hate to write this), “I think you suck”.

I don’t think its fair to judge others as good guys just because you like them or because they’re acceptable to you or you think they’re funny or because you share some of the opinions and vice versa.

Don’t you notice the hiprocrisy on the board? The Musasa thread isn’t on the board, but the non teacher thread is. The Hess thread is looked down upon by teachers, but its ok to make a thread called ****ing Warners. Insults, jibes, and personal attacks have been plenty, but only when an administrator is asked to stomach the giving of an apology is the board shut down.

Basically, its all ok until it happens to me or my friend.

Lurker

BTW, I don’t see any “real” violence on the board. I think what Wolf wrote is funny, mean, but funny. Can you imagine a law that lets you insult someone but only if you first insult them in a certain way. Its ludicrious and that’s funny. It is tounge-in-cheek.

Also, I’m sorry if I have offended Musasa again or Bu En Lai, but I am just trying to make an example to illustrate my points.

22

I’ll leave it up to the moderators to respond to that, since I have no intention of engaging you again.

23

That’s good, Musasa. Because everything I have said is perfectly supported, and if my thread was still up, people would be able to easily see that. I think, for whatever unstated reasons of which I think is dubious, they have already chosen to answer by deleting my post about you and leaving the one up about Non Teacher.

BTW, by not engaging me just now, you just engaged me. Sorry.

24

OK, let me put it this way: why don’t you just take your personal vendetta against me and shove it up your ass. If these boards aren’t going to be moderated, then fine. You seem to feel the need to be a forum vigilante. Look, pops, nowhere did I say I was Gandhi or that I was going to refrain from saying anything that was going to upset someone. You’re whole thing about my being a hypocrite is just a total crock. Now you’ve polluted the feedback section with this garbage. This post, and the preceding posts by you should be deleted (if this section were to be moderated) since they have nothing to do with offering feedback to the site.

And just so you know, I don’t get along with Non Teacher, but I recommended that the thread flaming him be removed. So take that and try to reconcile it with your assumption that I’m a pompous hypocrite.

Now, I have responded to you, since silence can admit acceptance. I didn’t intend to do so, but I’m not going to have some boat person dragging my name through the mud.

BASTA.

Peace out.

25

Musasa and Ultimate Lurker,

I think we and the audience have a pretty good idea of where you both stand. At this point, we’d like to hear from others about the Rants & Raves Forum who have not yet posted, so if you could take your discussion elsewhere, we’d appreciate it.

FYI, the Musasa thread was removed not because we agreed or disagreed with either of you but rather, that we disagreed with the motivation behind the thread.

Ultimate Lurker is free (or was at the time) to share his opinions about Musasa’s comments within the threads that those comments were made, but to start a separate thread for the sake of generating support in his campaign against Musasa was not warranted, in our opinion. Nor is it appropriate in this Guestbook Comments and Feedback. The other threads in question still remain only because we haven’t gotten to them yet, but we will.

In the meantime, we’d like to hear other people’s views about our dilemma with Rants & Raves. All other questions addressed to us (rating systems, etc.) will be answered shortly.

26

Dear Administrators,

Rants and Raves as a forum is fine, just leave it running and let people rant and rave.

However, it might be appropriate if you started another forum called ‘vendetta’.

This would be a place for people to carry on their little arguments, without boring the s.h.i.t out of other readers.

I also suggest you go right ahead and delete or move any postings which are placed in inappropriate forums. I have no idea why this musasa/lurker ‘thing’ is still in the feedback and opinion polls forum?

PS. I made the stupid mistake of ticking the ‘email notification’ box in one of my earlier postings, can you please do something about this? My mailbox is being flooded with notifications about postings, which turn out to be nothing but DRIBBLE.

27

Christine and Gus,

I gather that “freedom of speech” means absolutely no restrictions. Anything goes. That would be one end of a continuum, or one extreme. The other would be total control of expression – as was supposed to have existed in the former Evil Empire (Soviet Union) and is now reported to exist in varying degrees in the People’s Republic of China.

There is a middle ground. It is a position that existed in the United States in varying degrees until about 30 or 35 years ago. I don’t think there was ever a special label put on this position. At the time, it was simply referred to as “freedom of speech.” But with freedom of speech, or of anything else, came a corresponding responsibility

The expression of that responsibility was usually in the form of not offending the public’s sense of decency or propriety. The stereotyped coarse, uneducated, unwashed masses engaged in blunt assaults on the character or integrity of another person. It was thought that they lacked the intelligence, education and sophistication to express themselves any other way. People who were “properly brought up” did not engage in such behaviour. [Let’s leave a discussion of “yellow journalism” in the US for another time and place.]

The US saw itself as a great middle-class society and thus, even though one might be near the bottom economically, one could behave “properly” and thereby be seen as a member of the respectable, well-behaved, properly brought up middle class. .

There seemed to be general agreement as to what was decent and proper. That consensus does not seem to exist now in the US as well as a lot of other places. Of course, what I have described here are idealized pictures of society in America…

The US was not ever a society of gentility and refined manners. As John C. Condon, author of the classic text, “An Introduction to Intercultural Communication,” writes:

Psychologically, American men who seem too polite may be considered feminine, or “sissy-like.” This in turn seems bound up in a certain distrust of intellectuals and “fancy” language. This formality is often distrusted as a mask" (87).

However, this attitude toward politeness, “fancy” language and formality also seriously hampers USAmericans in their interactions with people in Asia and most of the rest of the world.

What does this mean in terms of your decisions regarding the monitoring of ORIENTED? In my opinion, it means you make a fundamental choice as which type of audience you want to attract to ORIENTED and its forums.

If you want an audience that consists primarily of those who advocate literal free speech, then you open the forums up to all comers and stay out of the way, as you have been urged to do. You already know that the material that will appear on the forums will range from the intelligent and thoughtful to the gross.

I think that most other people will be turned off by that atmosphere and the rougher elements will have ORIENTED pretty much to themselves.

If you want a more cosmopolitan, international audience, then you follow the line you have been trying to follow until now. You require registration for all forums. You keep the rules and regs you have now. You monitor and, where necessary, delete (and face accusations that you deleted or admonished because it disagreed with your personal agenda or views, rather than in the name of civility). You change the name of the forum from Rants and Raves to something else.

If the Rough Riders want a forum to show just how rough they can be, they can start their own site.

Ok. That’s my input on this. I am sure you have absolutely no idea where I stand on this issue, do you?

With utmost admiration and respect for the two of you,

Ben Seale

28

Musasa, if your name was worth something, then you should be worried about it being dragged through the mud. Right now, buddy, you don’t have a darn thing to worry about at all.

Vigilante? Isn’t that what you were trying to do with Non Teacher? (ie forcing your views on him or you’d arrange a ticket for him on the first plane out of here) Please! Stop calling the kettle black! (which is an idiom for…, well, you know, that quality you exude.)

But I can see why you think the board should be moderated – to keep people out who try to prove their points by telling another to shove it up their ass, or resort to name calling. You remember, all those things that you said you wouldn’t do and neither should others, which is why you are a… I don’t have to say it, do I?

Hey, Musasa, thank you once again for proving my point.

PS I don’t have to reconcile your request on the Non Teacher thread (which I assume you started, did post on many times and want to, again, cover your tracks by erasing it) because the event does not equal the event. Stew on that one.

29

Once again, Lurker (or Thanos, or…what was this about accountability?) you have misrepresented what I posted. And no I did not start the To: Non Teacher thread. Man, you have some issues…

You clearly have a pathological obssession with my posts, and whereas I do appreciate the readership, it’s not quite the type of attention I prefer.

Ben Seale - I think you make some excellent points and have hit on a fundamental issue: the degree of moderation required and the extent to which “freedom of speech” can be taken.

Admins: Could you please answer the questions I laid out above? (before the latest Thanos/Lurker/Troller assault) Some of my friends have suggested that this is largely a for-profit site. Is this a fair characterization?

Thank you, and feel free to edit my posts to delete all references to Lurker/Thanos/??? if you wish.

30

I love it! This guy never takes any responsibility for his actions or what he posts, even to the point of denial! Lol!

He’s so distraught that he to ask the Administrators for help and he has to comes to terms with his self-brought predicament by inferring its because the site will be a for profit venture.

I’ll give you a hint: if you stop referencing me in all your future posts (and just to spell it out to you that will include calling me a troll, boat person, rodent, or whatever the next insult or acccusation you make up is), I’ll stop telling people what kind of person you are.

31

Dear administrators, in view of the recent posts by lurker and musasa, I would like to reverse my position and say that I am now unequivocally in favor of forum moderation.
Lurker, musasa, I wish you’d take this argument to regular email and keep it between yourselves. Its old, it has no place in this thread and its making you both look like idiots.

32

Ok, I apologize to you, sandman, and any other readers out there who didn’t like the tone or language of our recent postings. Its just that I don’t like di nengs telling me to go shove things up my rear area. I hope you can understand that that is what got me torked today.

Again, sorry.

33

I think that with conscientious moderation, there should be no need for a separate, no-holds-barred forum. I have always advocated an open language policy. As was written earlier by a poster, using offensive language may simply pollute whatever argument is being offered. I agree, but I believe people have the right to be given enough rope to hang themselves, if that is what they choose to do.
I also think that the moderators should steer threads that have gone astray back to the subject, if possible. So many of these topics start well enough, but then wander off on tangents and never find their way back to the original reason the topic was created. If people cannot regain the focus of the topic, it may be that it needs to be eliminated.
I also think older topics should be eliminated. If no one has posted to a topic since last summer, for example, it seems reasonable to delete it.
I think there should be a permanent forum, however, for useful information for visitors and residents. Any information that seems useful on a topic that is to be deleted could be moved there.
The idea of concretely identifying people to the administrators cannot be enforced and, therefore, would be futile to attempt. Besides, it is irrelevant who posters really are.
Which brings me to a final point. This is something that is out of the hands of the administrators, but I thought I’d mention anyway. I think people have to realize that cyber chatters are necessarily less responsible than those in other forms of communication because of the anonymity of the participants. Still, some people on Oriented have an almost Victorian sense of what is or is not polite or courteous. Others have tried to rally the law behind them in an attempt to take a higher moral ground and show that there are consequences to not being “nice.”
These are simply facts: No posters to Oriented can sue each other; no administrator can sue anyone; no one is liable for what they say.
I think the administrators have it right when they say under Rants and Raves: Say whatever you want to say! Let’s remember our manners though, and do try to be civil…
I think that is enough. Try to be civil, or not – other posters will form their own opinions as to whether the writer is naughty or nice.

34

By the way,
I forgot to mention that I am rated as only a four-star member. Four people have voted and I am a star short of a straight flush. As a sensitive person, this makes me very depressed. I have considered suicide many times since my rating went down. I cry myself to sleep each night after drinking myself into a self-pitying stupor and taking 20mg of Valium. Someone out there doesn’t like me and I don’t know who it is. It’s making my life a miserable hell.
That’s why I think the rating for individuals should be scrapped. The rating for the value of a topic is excellent, however.
Boo-hoo…

35

Hi Guys and gals,

I am a newby to this forum and have found the ‘Rants and Raves’ thread the best.
I implore you, please don’t remove it.
Fellow readers, if you don’t agree with what is written then don’t read it. It is as simple as that.

36

Afterreading through most of the preceding posts (I got bored with Lurker and musasa) I have to agree that Rants and Raves is a an important part of Oriented. I enjoy reading soem of what is said, but as an adult I can choose to ignore that which is pointless.

I think that the idea of a ‘vendetta’ forum or something similar is a good one. That way topics can stay pretty much on track.

The proposal of having a message centre for helpful info is a terrific one - I am new in Taipei and it has taken a while to find out the really helpful bits, but this site is very helpful.

I think that there are both pros and cons to administrators moderating the posts, but feel that maybe there should be more opportunity to “rant and rave” and less time spent on calling names. I feel you should be able to say anything as long as it’s not causing someone else distress. That said I think that overall Oriented is the best discovery I made on the web since arriving in Taiwan!

37

Rants and Raves is a valuable forum, but it needs to be moderated. As the website is not a democratic effort, I believe that no apologies need to be made. Christine, Gus, what you guys need to do is find a moderator, someone you trust, someone who shares similar values and will keep Rants & Raves from becoming a place that caters only to the lowest common denominator. Hate threads aren’t valuable, but constructive criticism is. Try to find someone who can arbitrate in a reasonably even-handed fashion.

38

I really think we can have our cake and eat it too. It doesn’t come down to some kind of choice between ‘free speech’ (with all the rubbish that comes with it) or moderation. Just two areas. One is moderated, sticks to the topic and requires registration. The other is totally open and unmoderated. Any unsuitable posts in the moderated area get dumped into the open area. I think the only problem with no moderation is that some people are sensitive to abuse and some people don’t want to read drivel so these people (and what they have to offer) are driven away. They wouldn’t have to even look at the open forum. Simple.

Bri

Oh, a PS to Ben’s suggestion that those wanting an open forum create a new site. I think it is far more valuable to keep everyone together rather than having a number of rival sites. That is why I strongly urge the administrators to try something like my suggestion

39

I think there should be some kind of moderation in all of the forums, especially the rants and rave forum. The purpose of the forum is to discuss various aspects of Taiwan, not to put down others. Without moderation, all sorts of different elements come in that have nothing to do with Taiwan (like the hate threads we have seen lately). There are always going to be those individuals that try to stir up hate and trouble against others, but in a moderated forum a lot of that can be filtered out. Let’s have a community that welcomes everybody, not one that excludes and ridicules others. With wise moderators we can have such a community.

Also, I want to say thanks to Christine and Gus for a great site. Keep up the good work!

Taotie

40

I don’t think that link on “initial thoughts” on this subject was one bit helpful. Its seemed like an extension of the forum only with people saying the same kinda stuff.

  1. Should we keep the Rants & Raves?
    First of all, why was it created? Its name sounds like its goal was successful. A place for people to vent and say whatever good or bad sounding. Ever heard of freedom of speech? People have opinions of varying degrees and perspectives so I think that oriented should not patronize those who are offended because they aren’t taking the scenario into perspective. They should be asking themselves why that forum is called “rants and raves” before they comment saying it is full of bashing and the sort.

  2. Should registration be required to post?
    When you say registration, do you mean registered as an oriented member or registration for forum posting in particular. If the latter, I think that it should be removed. If the former, I think that some topics, like informative postings that can help others, should not require registration, but things like “rants and raves” should.

  3. Should the discussions be moderated?
    This goes back to the first question. Now if moderated, what is the meaning of free speech? If one person heckles too much and gets on the nerves of the rest of the community, that is their problem because they are ostracizing themselves. I may not agree with some posts, but I support the fact that they post what they have to say. After all, they are following the theme of the topic.