[quote]Given our injection of European identity in the conversation, is it plausible to say
“I am Italian, I am not European”
“I am French, I am not European”
“I am German, I am not European”
“I am Danish, I am not European” [/quote]
You completely failed to follow the logic of the argument ac.
Brian
That’s pretty much a given.
[quote=“david”][quote=“ac_dropout”]Given our injection of European identity in the conversation, is it plausible to say
“I am Italian, I am not European”
“I am French, I am not European”
“I am German, I am not European”
“I am Danish, I am not European”
I would be very hard press to find these statements plausible, unless there were some extreme circumstances in the individual
[quote=“Bu Lai En”][quote]Given our injection of European identity in the conversation, is it plausible to say
“I am Italian, I am not European”
“I am French, I am not European”
“I am German, I am not European”
“I am Danish, I am not European” [/quote]
You completely failed to follow the logic of the argument ac.
Brian[/quote]
Care to elaborate. I have not seen any symbolic logic used in anyone
[quote=“ac_dropout”][quote=“david”][quote=“ac_dropout”]Given our injection of European identity in the conversation, is it plausible to say
“I am Italian, I am not European”
“I am French, I am not European”
“I am German, I am not European”
“I am Danish, I am not European”
I would be very hard press to find these statements plausible, unless there were some extreme circumstances in the individual
As I mentioned in USA societies Asian are not allowed to fully assimilate. 4th Generation Japanese in the USA that speak fluent English and have no connection to Japan, still look very Asian and live with the various social stigma USA society places on them.
That is really up to you. After WWII it was very unpopular to be identified as German. So there was real pressure in the oversea German community to lose their identity in the USA and go through assimilation in the USA.[quote]My first cousins have a Japanese mother and an Australian father. They have the same German family name as I do. They have both lived and worked in Asia. They identify themselves as Australian, which is where they were born and grew up. [/quote]
This is more of an example of society not allowing for full assimilation of that individual due to phenotype, as I was describing for Asians in the USA. Thus even if these individuals are in Japan and wanted claim to be Japanese, the Japanese on the whole would not reciprocate that identity to those individuals.
[/quote]
Take a look at what you are saying… My cousins are treated as Australians… yet you say that the Japanese wouldnt let them assimilate… assimiation requires at least a presence in Japan firstly wouldt you say… So you are just confirming what that most asians are racist…
First you say people are assimilated… but then you say they arent… based on race? Bollocks
It’s up to the individual… perhaps if you just ried to be an American instead of having the whinging Chinese American you would be a lot happier.
It’s not always a case of the USA or Austalians not letting somebody assimilate into our society. People like yourself refuse to assimilate by choice. When my son was in Australia he made plenty of aussie friends even though he clearly looks asian. His Taiwanese friends refused to play with his Aussie mates… and in doing so isolated themselves into tiny ROC recluses.
Stop blaming others for your own failure to assimilate into the USA… and also for not being able be Chinese enough…
[quote=“bob”]Nothing unreasonable about saying “I am Taiwanese not Chinese”. Saying “I am Taiwanese not Asian” would be unreasonable. The second sentence is more analogous to your “I am Italian not European” example.
AC perhaps you are especially fond of your countries past relationship to China and wish to continue identifing yourself in terms of that past relationship. Others might not share that sentiment and are seeking to forge a new identity. The fact that they are making the effort is itself proof of that identity. It requires no further proof. The difference between you and the TIs is that their focus is on what they want to become while yours is on what was. Which do you suppose is more confident and positive?[/quote]
I don’t know if proud is the right world. We lost. It is more like I accept the realities of history and the reality of Taiwan’s present condition.
I also accept that fact there are grave consquences for Taiwan if it doesn’t do a reality check in the near future on its Taidu aspirations.
For starters, AC, Europe is more of a fluffy notion that you care to think, as it means different things to different people.
Europe is a geographic area, or for more than one, if you talk about political Europe, geographical Europe etc. For instance the caucasus region is part of the european continent, but I would not really see them as Europeans in line with Germans.
Europe can also used as a name for the EU (political cooperation).
Europe is a moon around Jupiter.
Europe is a cultural identity, but not one you would see as a very unified one. You have different sects, different eating habits, different societies even… (South Italy versus Russia or Northern Scandinavia).
People can be culturally “European” without ever setting foot there or even consider it their main identity. Try to talk to some Canadians, Australians, or Kiwis about that, as earlier mentioned. I would say that by far the largest cultural influence on the US comes from Europe, and that most americans are at least as much “European” as the average Zhanghua rice farmer is “Chinese”.
You also have people living in Europe, who by cultural definition is quite far away from what you would consider standard “European”. I am not talking about recent arrivals, but of the Calmycians who are buddhists.
ac, if you’d bothered going back and reading my post, you would see that the argument goes like this.
Taiwan was colonised by Chinese. Taiwan shares a huge amount of culture and language with China. Taiwan was politically part of China for a longtime, but no longer is. Most Taiwanese are genetically similar to Chinese.
NZ was colonised by Europeans/English. NZ shares a huge amount of culture and language with Europe/England. NZ was politically a part of Europe/England for a long time, but no longer is. Most NZers are genetically similar to Europeans/English.
Zeugmite was arguing that it is valid for a Taiwanese to say “I am Taiwanese, not Chinese” I was arguing that it is just liek saying "I am a New Zealander, not European/English.
Your examples, don’t fit the patter at all.
Next time, be bothered going back and reading, before spouting irrelevant bullshit.
Brian
Which is another core issue in this discussion. If you believe Taiwan is a province of the PRC, then it makes sense from your perspective that Taiwanese by definition must be Chinese, where the term Taiwanese is used as a regional indicator and Chinese a national one. This is perfectly logical. However two problems come up from there - firstly, the whole Taiwan-as-province thing is neither official nor totally accepted, least of all by Taiwanese. Which means that both concepts are valid, although you seem to be hardcore about saying that everyone must agree with your opinion. If some choose to, good on them, that’s who they’ve decided to identify themselves as. If not, that’s just as good and just as valid. The other problem is that you keep switching between Chinese as national marker and Chinese as cultural marker, which injects a whole huge chunk of instability and inconsistency into your argument. The concepts of Chinese-as-nationality and Chinese-as-ethnicity are entirely seperate, as readily evidenced by the many, many overseas-born Chinese who identify with the Chinese-as-ethnicity marker but a different national one. To try and imply that the two are inseperable is wrong and a poor way of formulating an argument.
I fully agree with you Mr. He, except on one point. The moon of Jupiter in question is Europa…named for the woman that Europe was named after in Greek mythology.
However, bravo for your response, which was very well put. :bravo:
[quote=“bob”]
AC perhaps you are especially fond of your countries past relationship to China and wish to continue identifing yourself in terms of that past relationship.[/quote]
No, it’s not a past relationship. It is ongoing.
That’s right and they have every right to do so. Long ways off though.
Fine. But it doesn’t make it so. Come on, do I have to bring up the “superman” example yet again?!
Which do you suppose is more delusional and rootless? But these are moral judgements (both mine and yours) that have nothing to do with whether “Taiwanese not Chinese” makes sense (and should be the topic of another discussion).
That’s on target. AC is correct. We are also of course discussing the reason why society is not reciprocating the identity “Taiwanese not Chinese” on the one side while the other side discusses how to pull their hair out due to it not being reciprocated. 
[quote]Taiwan was colonised by Chinese. - True
Taiwan shares a huge amount of culture and language with China. - True
Taiwan was politically part of China for a longtime, but no longer is. - False
Most Taiwanese are genetically similar to Chinese. - True (scientifically inaccurate)[/quote]
Taiwan is governed by the ROC which is one of the China(s) in dispute at this time. There doesn’t exist a resolution to the issue. Work in progress if you will.
[quote]NZ was colonised by Europeans/English. - True
NZ shares a huge amount of culture and language with Europe/England. -True
NZ was politically a part of Europe/England for a long time, but no longer is. - False, it is part of the UK commonwealth system.
Most NZers are genetically similar to Europeans/English. - True (but questionable).[/quote]
The key difference is that UK does still have some influence on NZ. But it is a loose commonwealth system agreed upon by all sides. PRC and ROC have not reached this point yet.
Only as much as China was colonized by Chinese.
You see, there is a qualitative difference when you go to the other end of the earth and do it. You may disagree, but there is.
Problem: Europe was not a political unit. NZ was not a part of any political Europe. NZ European identity, whether it refers to race or culture, is basically an identity formed in NZ (i.e. local) and was not a pre-formed European identity that was brought to NZ as is.
I argued it is NOT valid (today, but may be in the future). I argued it is not like saying “I am a New Zealander, not European/English” because European was not a pre-formed identity and English was not more diverse such that it could theoretically encompass the NZ identity.[/quote]
OK, it looks like we’re now running circles, and I’ve offered all the points I have to offer.
Taiwan was a province of Republic of China and is now the Republic of China, so we are Chinese.
It was official and it is now even further reinforced that Taiwan is Republic of China.
This opinion has been reinforce by our current President stating Taiwan is ROC. Not to mention our Chinese national name is 中華民國 (China Chinese Democratic Nation).
So even if I wanted to believe in the future there would be a Taiwanese nation. Currently there is not.
You mean 中華民國 (ROC) is not a Chinese Nation.
And 華 (Hua) doesn’t refer to the Chinese culture in ROC.
I’ve been very consistent in my meaning, it is English which is lacking in the breath of vocabulary words I can use for Chinese.
The chuck of instability you are talking about is Taidu supporters. Who believe in the 臺灣國 (Taiwan Nation), and that 臺灣人 (Taiwanese) are neither 華人(Chinese) culturally, nor 漢人 (Chinese) ethnically.
Coming back to this, I must say this is an extremely lucid statement, and states a very broad and general principle.
It can be applied to lots of things, such as gay marriage. It ultimately raises troublesome philosophical implications about what is “right” and what is “wrong” and what exactly makes society work at all. The crux of this is, everybody has their own meter for every proposition “yes/no.” Everybody’s meter is wired differently. If enough meters go one way past some threshold, then society “accepts.” If not, then, well, too bad.
There are two ways to affect the readings. One is perhaps trying to rewire other peoples’ meters (i.e. change the relative importance of various reasons contributing to the meter reading.) The other is to make changes to whatever the meter is measuring.
There is a society reading for “Taiwanese not Chinese”, which is: it is not valid. All I’ve done is, as a member agreeing with society reading, I tell you how my meter is wired (i.e. reasons) as well as guesses for other wiring possibilities that lead to these readings. That’s it.
The other side is doing the same thing, but when claiming “it is valid” they are saying something much weaker, which is merely “my meter reads ‘valid’”.
Gay marriage is legal in ROC. It was to show we were more interested in human right than even the USA.
I entirely agree, the problem with Taidu “Taiwanese not Chinese identity” is that they see “valid” but what is really says is “I hope it is valid and nobody questions me too much about it.”
The equality of the Taiwanese and the Chinese identity in the eyes of Taidu is tied into the hope of:
Coming back to this, I must say this is an extremely lucid statement, and states a very broad and general principle.
It can be applied to lots of things, such as gay marriage. It ultimately raises troublesome philosophical implications about what is “right” and what is “wrong” and what exactly makes society work at all. The crux of this is, everybody has their own meter for every proposition “yes/no.” Everybody’s meter is wired differently. If enough meters go one way past some threshold, then society “accepts.” If not, then, well, too bad.
There are two ways to affect the readings. One is perhaps trying to rewire other peoples’ meters (i.e. change the relative importance of various reasons contributing to the meter reading.) The other is to make changes to whatever the meter is measuring.
There is a society reading for “Taiwanese not Chinese”, which is: it is not valid. All I’ve done is, as a member agreeing with society reading, I tell you how my meter is wired (i.e. reasons) as well as guesses for other wiring possibilities that lead to these readings. That’s it.
The other side is doing the same thing, but when claiming “it is valid” they are saying something much weaker, which is merely “my meter reads ‘valid’”.[/quote]
it may be so now, but more and more of your so called “meters” are shifting to TIers favor. This has come about during the democratization and freeing of Taiwanese society. As long as Taiwan remains a democracy and freedom of expression is respected, there is a good probability that one day the readings of the meters may reverse.
Democracy and Freedom is not an excuse for racism and ethnic reinterpretation. One cannot use the guise of Democracy and Freedom to be social irresponsible and dismiss the majority of people on Taiwan.
The TIers in their abuse of democracy and freedom are bringing us that much closer to war with the PRC. The mere fact that Taiwan society has allow such nonsense into mainstream discourse illustrates the lack of control in this society.
I will not go to war because some Hoklo cannot figure out he is Han and follows Hua culture. I also refuse to give up the ROC because some Hoklo cannot grasp the concept of equality for all, and demand a Hoklo Nation State.