What Does It Mean to Be Taiwanese?

[quote]
I forgot to mention Taiwan’s home rule movement and it’s success during the last years of the Japanese administration of gaining some involvement in a democratic process at the grassroots level. No, it wasn’t full-fledged democracy, but it was an important step in the right direction. Obviously the Japanese colonial administration came to believe the majority of citizens had come to see themselves as Japanese and thus trustworthy enough to take part in the colony’s governance. Who’s to say that in another 50 years Taiwan’s government would not have resembled that of HK’s, with a great number of Taiwanese serving as legislators, judges… ?[/quote]

I’m sorry, but to be blunt, that is a lot of bullshit. The Taiwanese home rule movement, while barely tolerated, at times was for the most part supressed under the Japanese colonial administration. It’s success as you call it during the last years of Japanese rule is an interesting way to phrase it(by interesting I mean wrong). Especially considering that the deprevations of war fostered within the Japanese government an especially natural reactionary urge to suppress all manner of discontent. In fact, the last political group of such, the League for Attainment of Local Autonomy(Taiwan chihojichi renmei), was already outlawed by the Japanese colonial authorities by 1936.

Most Taiwanese were not allowed into the Japanese colonial system. That a few anomalies surfaced and were present is not representitive of Japanese benevolence and largess, but quite the opposite, wholesale systematic discrimination and repression in all social, political, and economic spheres. The vaunted Japanese educational reform that many stress only went so far as providing primary education for low-skilled and unskilled labour. Secondary education in colonial Taiwan was generally denied to the local people and was really only instrumented on Taiwan when ironically enough local elites were sending their children off to Japanese universities. The colonial administration, fearing that many of them would return and outrank them in the bureaucratic hierarchy began initializing a program of secondary school education for local Taiwanese, of course these new institutions being naturally of inferior quality to the education Japanese settlers would receive on the island. Even as late as 1937 I believe and perhaps later, the majority of students in secondary education in colonial Taiwan were Japanese and not Chinese despite numbering only 5% of the total population.

You cite that the Japanese administration somehow came to believe that the colonial regime believed that the majority of Taiwanese saw themselves as Japanese and thus trustworthy. History, rather than your fanciful imagination shows quite the opposite. The 1920’s were the years in which the home rule movement in Taiwan was most prominent and for 15 years between 1921 and 1936, petitions were sent to the Japanese diet on the issue of local autonomy and for 15 years, the topic never even made it out of commission. The home rule movement a success? No, quite the contrary it was a pitiful failure.

The home rule movement itself was never a universal feature in colonial Taiwanese politics at that, but rather the movement was universally led by the most conservative elements of Taiwanese society. The elements of the Taiwanese-left regarded them as intellectual cowards and as being too passive. Instead they chose to emphasize radicalism in the vein of other Asian anti-colonial movements.

This is a major point of contention between me and Taidu advocates. Being that without a solid historical basis for their cause, a superficial awareness of certain historical facts will lead them to spontaneously erupt in either historical fabrication or obsession over droll banalities. (e.g. Taiwan is diverse, look at all the Portugese and Dutch influences…) (Taiwanese are not Chinese, see 2% aboriginal!) (Taiwanese are different from Chinese because we enjoy eating sushi).

What disgusts me the most of course, is the fawning apologia for Japanese colonialism that oozes from the Taidu separatists and their western running dog lackies. To be frank, the adulation of Japanese accomplishments on Taiwan are a carefully nurtured self-serving and self-perpetuating myth fostered by bitterness and resentment towards the KMT and mainland arrivals who so painfully dissappointed them. That the Japanese colonialists were somehow better than the KMT is a psychological phantasm created out of emotional insecurity.

Now of course the last paragraph is just my opinion, and as most people are well aware, I am a fairly no-nonsense reunificationist so you will have to take it with a grain of salt.

Why did you feel that you had to ruin an informative, well-argued post with that second-to-last paragraph?

There’s a big difference between the highly-militarized Japanese government of the late 1930s and the previous decades. Many Taiwanese intellectuals and writers mention that Japanese teachers and colleagues impressed them personally with their commitment to democracy and other liberal values. Ye Shitao is one example. Another example would be Taiwanese doctors and lawyers who were educated under the Japanese system but then became leaders in the 2-28 movement and the democracy movement since.

You misrepresent Taiwanese when you repeat the idea that people want to restore Japanese rule. What people are saying is that Japanese rule showed them the benefits of a well-ordered, modern socity governed by rulle of law. Through their exposure to liberal Japanese intellectuals both in Taiwan and Japan, many intellectuals became committed to democratic values despite the fact that they were living under authoritarian Japanese rule.

Please point out to me where I stated that people wanted to restore Japanese rule or even implied it, thank you. I’m just pointing out to me, what seems patently obvious. That some people “build up” the Japanese legacy on Taiwan because they flat out cannot accept the KMT and will take every opportunity to demean or belittle it.

As for your arguement that living under Japanese rule somehow enabled Taiwanese intellectuals to become exposed to Japanese liberals, well this is all a completly irrelevant arguement if one looks beyond the facade of apologism to emperialism. The world was not such an isolated place then as you would assume and ideologies and politics were not confined only to their sole political borders. Japanese afterall, learned the benefits of a “well-ordered modern society” as you call it governed by the rule of law when individual intellectuals and students visited and studied in the United States and Europe. Mainland Chinese students afterall had also traveled to Japanese universities to study. You arguement, that the colonial system was the transveyor of liberalism and democracy simply doesn’t hold water, as there are other avenues of ideological transmission beyond subjugation. Ironically, those students most commited to the overthrow of the colonial system and democratic values were those who had gone to universities in mainland China and had been radicalized by the political developements of the 20’s and 30’s. You wrote that many of the Japanese settlers on Taiwan were somehow of the left. This is pretty much patently ridiculous. While there were certainly some Japanese sympathetic to the Taiwanese, the Japanese presence at large on the island overwhelmingly acted to safeguard its own interests. During the earlier 1910’s-1920’s when the colonial system was still coalescing, education iniatives begun by local elites directed at the colonial government to improve education on the island were constantly resisted by the settlers who felt that if the locals were to become more educated, that they would challenge their higher positions in society. What the colonial system did transvey, particularly among Taiwan’s urban educated elite who had more interaction with the Japanese as opposed to the rurals, was the inherent injustice of a system designed to keep them at the bottom of socio-political ladder. This inherent sense of injustice, would be inflamed by the later arrival of the KMT and their subsequent policies.

p.s. in case your mental timeline is a little off, almost all of those involved in the democracy movement of the late 80’s were educated under the KMT.

I apologize for misrepresenting you if you did not mean to say that TIers would welcome a restoration of Japanese rule. It’s a common accusation and some of your statements in earlier posts along with comment about ‘apologists’ suggested to me that you were saying something like that.

I don’t have time for a long response right now, but I do think that you are equating colonialism with simple straightforward oppression, and I think there is a lot of scholarship out there that suggests the relationship between the colonizers and the colonized was a lot more complex than you seem willing to admit.

By ‘democracy movement’ I was more refering to people in the Peng Min-ming/LTH generation rather than the democracy movement of the 1980s.

And your earlier comment about rule of law being a ‘kind of sort of’ rule of law is another common misconception. It’s true that the judicial branch is not as powerful or assertive as it should be, but on the nuts and bolts ground of things like business and criminal law, there is no question that Taiwan is under rule of law.

What about at the most basic level, that being the citizens being willing to respect the law and the police enforcing it (and not sporadically)? I think this is an important aspect of the concept of “rule of law,” and one that is still missing in Taiwan at the present time.

[quote=“LittleBuddhaTW”]
What about at the most basic level, that being the citizens being willing to respect the law and the police enforcing it (and not sporadically)? I think this is an important aspect of the concept of “rule of law,” and one that is still missing in Taiwan at the present time.[/quote]Oh I think that the public is coming around to the idea that rule of law exists. Note that pulling out the ‘get out of jail free card’ gets you into more trouble then it gets you out of these days, and the way that foreigners are no longer getting away with the ‘no speakee Chinese’ act. The problem is not that noone recognizes rule by law, it’s that they all think the laws simply don’t apply to them in particular, especially when noone’s watching :s

:bravo: Exactly. If the majority of the people of a certain area all justify to themselfves that they are different and want to become/remain a seperate country, then they should be allowed to. And vice versa.

I would love for someone to explain to me why there is a need for so many people around the world to cling to this “The Chinese People” hogwash. Please explain! I cannot fathom it. I have white skin, but I most definately never even thought of going up to some other white skinned person and saying “Hey! We’re both caucasian so we’re brothers, we’re the same! Let’s go made a country together and unite the white people of the world!”

Now putting my sarcasm and sharp (dull) wit aside, saying Taiwan and China are both Chinese so they should be together, is harder to justify than saying Australia and New Zealand are identical and therefore should unify. Or Canada/US, any given region in Europe, yada yada…

What the hell does it matter if theres a historical basis for “differences”? Any two places are by definition two different places and therefore not the same. Besides that, what is currently prevailent if the only thing that matters. What my grandparents thought has absolutely no jurisdiction over how I think/vote/etc. And if you still want to go done this “how different are they” road, then you eventually have to draw a line in the sand and say “how much” different you have to be before you can call yourself distinct. I don’t have to point out the fallacy of this, do I?

So really all the matters is what I said at the very beginning. If the majority feel they have a seperate identity then they should be allowed to act as so. And vice versa. Simple.

Now if people base their rational on reuniting the chinese people, I personally have a huge problem with that and think you’re sadly ignorant and messed up, but thats a completely seperate problem (see above request).

Just curious, but what is so “sadly ignorant” and “messed up” about wanting to reunite all the Chinese people (By this I assume you mean Han and its subcategories)?

The stunning lack of any calls to “reunify” with Singapore and Vancouver perhaps?

One step at a time comrade.

Heute Asia, danach British Columbia!

Politics of China and Taiwan aside, the notion of “unifying all under Heaven” 統一天下 has been a very important thread in Chinese history and culture ever since the time of the Qin Dynasty, over 2000 years ago. Those kinds of culturally-embedded beliefs (like the Confucian control over Chinese thinking, whether conscious or subconscious, as another example) are hard to wipe out in just a couple decades. Mao and the Red Guards tried to do just that during the Cultural Revolution and it barely made a dent in those beliefs. Ten Maos and twenty Cultural Revolutions couldn’t do it. Comparing this line of thinking with the way we think in the west about nationality, ethnicity, and national independence is like trying to compare apples and oranges. It may seem a bit illogical from our point of view, but to many Chinese, it’s a very serious matter.

So the unification arguments in this thread seem to boil down to this:

All ethnic Chinese are subjects of the emporer.

OK, I don’t think this argument even needs rebuttal.

Brian

While the verb “reunite” has aspects of its definition that merely mean, “put back together things which were previously together”, a more important aspect of the definition, in this context, is mutual desire to get back together. And in a given situation, if there is no mutual desire, then any future joining wouldn’t be reunification. It would be something closer to coercion of the weaker by the stronger. That is what could be sadly ignorant or messed up about continued demands by some people for reunification of peoples of China and Taiwan.

Seeker4

While the verb “reunite” has aspects of its definition that merely mean, “put back together things which were previously together”, a more important aspect of the definition, in this context, is mutual desire to get back together. And in a given situation, if there is no mutual desire, then any future joining wouldn’t be reunification. It would be something closer to coercion of the weaker by the stronger. That is what could be sadly ignorant or messed up about continued demands by some people for reunification of peoples of China and Taiwan.[/quote]

:thanks: Ka-ching we have a winner.

My main point, though, which seems pretty obvious by cmdjing asking what aspect of “Chinese” I meant, is that just how do you “unify” a false concept like “Chinese”. As stated previously by others, do you mean a former dynastic region now refered to as Chinese history, which leads to the question why can’t Thailand or Burma or the Khmers demand the same thing? Or perhaps you mean all Han peoples? Well then you had better let a huge portion of the current PRC go as it isn’t, and I don’t believe you’ll find parts of Vancouver or San Fran willing. And if you mean reunite the PRC, well sorry but Taiwan and other regions were never part of the PRC so how do you go about reuniting something that isn’t yours???

Now if your real wish is to reunite people on the premise that we’re all the same and theres no need to fight amongst ourselves, well hear hear to that :bravo: But then I have to wonder why you have to be so bigoted as to think only “chinese” people deserve this :ponder:. Shouldn’t have a damn thing to do with what you look like, we’re all human beings.

So my question still stands. Why this attitude?

[quote=“Freakin’ Amazing”]
So my question still stands. Why this attitude?[/quote]

Simple. You’re not Chinese. You wouldn’t understand it.

LittleBuddhaTW tried to explain it in a nice way but I noticed you just blew right by that one.

As for the other people claiming SF, Vancouver or whatever, it’s not saying those people do not consider themselves Chinese. They do. They’re part of what we call the Greater Chinese Diaspora. You ask them. Are they Chinese? Yes, they are. They just happen to live elsewhere.

Being part of an overall identity does not have to do with the politics of TI. Keeping them separate makes the arguments much sounder and logical.

So if Chinese in SF, Vancouver, Singapore, et al are considered to be “living elsewhere,” why aren’t those in Taiwan? Where is the line to be drawn, and how is it defined?

[quote=“Yellow Cartman”][quote=“Freakin’ Amazing”]
So my question still stands. Why this attitude?[/quote]

Simple. You’re not Chinese. You wouldn’t understand it.
[/quote]I’m sorry, but I can’t help but :laughing:
If this ‘Chinese-ness’ that transcends location, upbringing, education, genetics and politics actually exists, then I’m sure you can present a sound logical argument that proves it, rather than hiding behind this kind of mysticism.

[quote=“hsiadogah”]I’m sorry, but I can’t help but :laughing:
If this ‘Chinese-ness’ that transcends location, upbringing, education, genetics and politics actually exists, then I’m sure you can present a sound logical argument that proves it, rather than hiding behind this kind of mysticism.[/quote]
Exactly.

I’m not even going to step into this, as besides being way off topic, the absolute ignorance, blatant stupidity, and glaring fallacy of this statement doesn’t warrant a response.

Back on topic, “Taiwanese” as an identity is a seperate thing from TI and polictical considerations. If one is refering only to passports, then yes the two are mixed, but it is not necessarily so. I know many “Taiwanese” (that is people born and raised on this pretty island) who have Canadian (or US) passports but would never refer to themselves as American/Canadian, they are always Taiwanese. Well some might first answer Chinese as they are either a) sick of people asking about Bangkok b) are refering to the ROC or c) think you knowing nothing of the region and so don’t want to explain anything. But once they know you’re not a complete geography/history turkey, the answer becomes Taiwanese. So I guess my point is that in the past and presently saying one is Taiwanese almost always refers to binlang girls, KTV, night markets, crazy blue trucks, taiwanese language, and that sort of stuff that the person speaking themselves identifies as Taiwanese culture, and has nothing to do with “One-China” or stuff like that. Yi ban lai shuo, of course.

Just what is Taiwanese? IMHO that is a much more difficult question to answer than, say what is Australian, and has a huge fluidity in responses depending on the situation. While of course the answer to what is Australian is also situation dependant, I’d argue that Taiwanese is much more variable. This can quite easily but blamed (yes that is intentional negative connotations) on Taiwan’s peculiar history, more specifically the mass propaganda of past governments. If you had a century of governments punishing you for speaking you native language, and a half century of government shoving “free our brothers on the mainland” and false history down your throat, I submit you, too, would also be confused. The range of answers recieved today, and more so a few years from now, is greatly expanding (see below), however due to other considerations.

But the gradual solidification of the geo-political Taiwanese identity, such as the inclusion of all the formerly ‘other’ groups, like waishengren and hakka, is a product of simple political freedom, more open minded education (like the internet) and people starting to give a f**k about more than just making money, and definitely not based on TI. TI is a product of it.

:beatnik: That was pretty clear wasn’t, doh…