What is child abuse?

Gao_Bohan · October 7, 2014, 2:09pm

OK, I just did. You advocate violence against children when the child is too young to communicate and it’s a life-or-death situation, such as the child being near an electrical socket. You later justify your position by noting that Taiwanese apartments are small, so uh, that makes hitting children OK.

How bizarre! 40 nations around the world manage to raise children in all environments without violence, from small apartments to big houses, all of which have electrical outlets, hot stoves, fireplaces, and other dangers. If a child is so young that he or she can’t communicate, then parents find other ways to keep the child from harm without resorting to physical violence. Your argument is based on the false premise that life-or-death situations exist that allow for no other solutions than violence against children. Ever heard of childproofing? Or how about simply pulling a child’s hand from danger, rather than striking it down?

I’m frankly shocked that you’re continuing to support violence against children. Totally out of character for you.

yuli · October 7, 2014, 2:09pm

I am afraid, logically speaking, Leftywang is right.

I think we need to find a better way of reasoning to cope with this kind of scenario.

Ermintrude · October 7, 2014, 2:26pm

Yup: don’t leave a toddler near a stove or in traffic. If the child doesn’t have the cognitive ability to remember the past or make predictions about the future, it’s unlikely to remember why he was smacked. Unless you let it happen often enough to reinforce the negative association.

Leftywang81 · October 8, 2014, 1:41am

Which person are you referring to, the adult striking the child, or the child being struck? As Monk would say, here’s the thing. In several nations, all forms of corporal punishment are banned, in some cases have been for decades. Millions and millions of children have been raised successfully without being hit by their parents. And that’s going to include all personality types, energy levels, grades of stubbornness, learning disabilities, etc. This isn’t just a matter of anecdotal information about this child or that child. Entire nations manage to raise children without using pain as punishment. It’s not just some isolated northern European countries. Corporal punishment is entirely banned Venezuela, Kenya, Turkmenistan, Israel, and many others. Everywhere from Latin America to Europe to Africa to Asia. There are now 40 countries with these bans in place.

There is simply no reason to ever strike a child.[/quote]

First of all, I would find it hard to believe that spanking a child in any country would be considered “corporal punishment”. So why don’t they call it what it is and ban spanking. Obviously I am not okay with corporal punishment in the household, but then the question is WHAT one considers corporal punishment, another considers a way to teach their children a lesson. Spanking is an example of this. Many in here have already mentioned that any physical contact with a child to punish the individual is considered “child abuse”. Telling a children to close their eyes with open palms so they won’t flinch when the stick comes down on their palms. Child abuse. Turning them around and spanking them on the rear end. Child abuse. Even yelling REALLY REALLY LOUD and scolding them. Child abuse.

Leftywang81 · October 8, 2014, 1:43am

Yup: don’t leave a toddler near a stove or in traffic. If the child doesn’t have the cognitive ability to remember the past or make predictions about the future, it’s unlikely to remember why he was smacked. Unless you let it happen often enough to reinforce the negative association.[/quote]

Who leaves their toddler near a stove or in traffic? Thats more of a knock on the parent than the toddler.
Has it occurred to you that sometimes toddlers just seem to find themselves in those situations?

Leftywang81 · October 8, 2014, 1:48am

I am afraid, logically speaking, Leftywang is right.

I think we need to find a better way of reasoning to cope with this kind of scenario.[/quote]

Thank you.
I’m glad someone was able to understand the point I was trying to make.

Hokwongwei · October 8, 2014, 8:01am

Do note that I said…

Ermintrude · October 8, 2014, 9:38am

Yup: don’t leave a toddler near a stove or in traffic. If the child doesn’t have the cognitive ability to remember the past or make predictions about the future, it’s unlikely to remember why he was smacked. Unless you let it happen often enough to reinforce the negative association.[/quote]

Who leaves their toddler near a stove or in traffic? Thats more of a knock on the parent than the toddler.
Has it occurred to you that sometimes toddlers just seem to find themselves in those situations?[/quote]

It was used as an example, upthread.

Y’know, it applies to most childhood misbehaviour, the idea of managing the environment so they aren’t shitheads. With preschoolers, just managing their sleep and blood sugar averts 90% of problems.

Rocket · October 8, 2014, 9:43am

[quote=“Ermintrude”]
Y’know, it applies to most childhood misbehaviour, the idea of managing the environment so they aren’t shitheads. With preschoolers, just managing their sleep and blood sugar averts 90% of problems.[/quote]

Good heavens, surely you aren’t about to drag out that tired old musty retreaded blood sugar/hyperactivity myth, say it ain’t so.

Petrichor · October 8, 2014, 10:56am

[quote=“Leftywang81”][quote=“Petrichor”][quote=“Leftywang81”][quote=“Petrichor”]
I think you’re setting up a strawman here. I just searched the term ‘abuser’ on this thread and only Deuce Dropper said, in one post, that AP is a child abuser. IIRC, all the other posters were arguing it was abuse. None of us knows what else he’s done, but IF he regularly physically hurts his child, he’s a child abuser. Other comments have agreed that parents routinely hitting their child are abusive, and I would agree.

I have a question for you. If hitting children is acceptable, is it okay to hit strangers’ children? And when does hitting your child become unacceptable? More than once a week? When it leaves a mark? When it hurts enough to make the child cry? When they involuntarily flinch when you raise your hand? Where do you draw the line?[/quote]

First of all. “Hitting” makes it sound like you are beating them for no reason. We’re talking about physical punishment to teach the children a lesson. Obviously I am not okay with hitting or punishing children for no apparent reason. I can’t say I was ever smacked or punished for doing nothing wrong. It was always to teach me a lesson and to let me know that if I were to repeat the same mistake, I would get the backhand or the belt. Is it okay to hit strangers’ children? Absolutely NOT. Only parents/grandparents (and teachers if given permission by the parents) should be allowed to physically punish their own children. I do not remember my aunts or uncles ever handing any physical punishment to me or my brother. More than once a week? Does it matter? When it leaves a mark? They usually result in marks and bruises. When it hurts enough to make the child cry? The children often ends up crying. Some children start crying before you even make contact. Some children start crying when you yell at them. When they involuntarily flinch when you raise your hand? Thats recognizing that the punishment is coming and instilling fear of making the same mistake. But to answer your main question. No, I would never “hit” a stranger’s kid. Its not my responsibility to teach someone else’s children right from wrong. Thats the parent’s responsibility.[/quote]

Hitting accurately describes what’s happening. Other words are euphemisms to justify the violence. My main question to you was, where do you draw the line? My sister was hit because she stumbled, as 3 year olds frequently do, but you don’t seem to think that was abusive behaviour. Do parents have carte blanche to hit their children as they see fit, as long as they can justify it to themselves? I’ll add another question - given that so many studies show that hitting is ineffective and often counterproductive, and that it’s perfectly possible to raise children well without hitting them, why should we endorse this behaviour nowadays?[/quote]

Yes, of course there are lines that should not be crossed. And as I stated earlier, I agree with you guys that AP crossed that line judging from the pictures that were provided. I will add that I have been whacked in the past where I have been bruised and in some cases, the yard stick and belt even drew blood. But AP’s son was 4 years old. That is over the top and even he admitted he got carried away. Hitting, to me means striking someone or something with a closed fit. Slapping would be a more accurate word to describe common physical punishment most of us have endured in the past, wouldn’t you agree? I don’t believe my dad has ever “hit” me with a closed fist. As far as crossing the line, that is for the parent to decide. Obviously, if you send the child to the hospital or the child needs medical attention, I think even individuals who are okay with physical punishment would call that excessive. But we have members in here saying that a simple spanking would be considered child abuse. Yelling really loudly and scolding them can also cause mental problems down the line.

Yes, I agree that its perfectly possible to raise children well without hitting them. Some people like cfimage have already mentioned they have NEVER been struck or physically punished by their parents or whoever raised them, and they seem to have turned out fine. Like I said, what works for one person, may not necessarily work for the next person. I never said we should all beat our children. I was simply saying that while YOU may not advocate physical punishment, it is a little unfair to call your neighbor a child abuser just because they still feel like they need to use physical punishment to teach their own children. The point was made that if anyone ever struck their kids, they would be labeled a child abuser. I asked if they felt Taiwanese parents who still physically punished their kids were child abusers and they said Yes. So I asked them whether or not they were ever struck or physically punished when they were younger by their parents. While many refused to answer knowing the point I was trying to make, some ultimately admitted that yes they were physically punished as well when they were younger. So by their very own definition, that would make their own parents “child abusers”. Many of them were quick to label Taiwanese parents who physically punished their kids as child abusers, but they would not pass the same label to their own parents who did exactly the same thing. I found that interesting.[/quote]

At the risk of being pedantic, hitting means to strike something with your hand or something else. Hitting something with a closed fist is called punching. Yes, slapping or smacking is what most of us who were hit experienced, but I prefer to use an umbrella term.

I don’t think it’s unfair to call people who routinely use physical punishments child abusers. It’s a strong term, but it’s accurate. An adult is far stronger than a child and has greater powers in many other ways. It is abusive to hit someone weaker than you (and to hit anyone unnecessarily), whether you think you’re doing out of love or not. As I said in the beginning of the debate, AP is probably following in the footsteps of his own father, and many people would condemn him if he didn’t hit his child, so it’s important to understand his behaviour in context. But just because a custom is generally accepted it doesn’t make it right. People have had many other customs in the past that we now recognise as unacceptable, such as slavery, animal cruelty and so on. In some parts of the world these traditions continue, and other nations quite rightly condemn such practices. We move on, become more civilised, and recognise our behaviour for what it really is.

I’m sorry that some posters have singled out Taiwanese parenting for this habit. I’m from the UK, where parents also routinely hit their children, so I’m not being self-righteous in saying that it’s wrong. But it is wrong.

robert_the_bruce · October 8, 2014, 11:19am

China Post, Taipei, 2 April 2004

Spanking goes on in schools despite law

Taipei, The China Post Staff

Corporal punishment, forbidden by the Ministry of Education, goes on in elementary and junior high schools across Taiwan, according to a survey released by the Humanistic Education Foundation yesterday.

Altogether 1,311 students in 62 junior high schools and 159 primary schools were polled.

Spanking and other forms of corporal punishment were reported in nine out of every ten schools surveyed.

Altogether 93.5 percent of the schools visited reported corporal punishment, the survey shows.

A 70 percent majority of students have been given corporal punishment so far in the current school year.

The foundation defines corporal punishment as “punishment that causes physical pain on the body or psychological pain through bodily control.”

Aside from spanking, forms of corporal punishment as defined by the foundation include a painful posture imposed on students, an increase of schoolwork, labor service, mutual slapping, fining, tagging, shaven heads and ridiculing in public.

By far, spanking is the most popular form of corporal punishment, the study indicates. A total of 72 percent of the respondents said they saw teachers spank students.

Only 11 percent said they never saw their teachers mete out any corporal punishment.

Half of the causes for corporal punishment was disobedience. Other causes include poor schoolwork (35 percent) and group punishment (20 percent).

About 14 percent of the respondents said teachers demanded that their parents agree to corporal punishment.

One third of the respondents, 33 percent, said they ought to be punished for disobedience.

Another 29 percent said they were afraid of corporal punishment. Still another 20 percent want to avenge themselves on the teachers. Only 13 percent believe teachers punished them to give vent to their frustration. Asked if they would spank their students when they became teachers, 65 percent of the respondents replied they would.

“That indicates,” a foundation spokesman said, “they would continue the tradition of not sparing the rod to spoil the child.”

He urged the Ministry of Education to outlaw corporal punishment. “We need legislation to outlaw it once and for all,” he said.

The Ministry of Education said the law on teaching now requires school authorities to deal with corporal punishment.

“The schools, parents and students have to agree on a set of disciplinary regulations, which should be satisfactory to all,” said Ho Chin-tsai, a Ministry of Education student discipline specialist.

But, Ho added, the Ministry of Education is opposed to any form of corporal punishment.

robert_the_bruce · October 8, 2014, 11:29am

Baby abuse in a childcare in Taipei:

youtube.com/watch?v=hJo0hQpA_Jc

Ermintrude · October 8, 2014, 11:59am

[quote=“Rocket”][quote=“Ermintrude”]
Y’know, it applies to most childhood misbehaviour, the idea of managing the environment so they aren’t shitheads. With preschoolers, just managing their sleep and blood sugar averts 90% of problems.[/quote]

Good heavens, surely you aren’t about to drag out that tired old musty retreaded blood sugar/hyperactivity myth, say it ain’t so. [/quote]

No, of course not. But you must concede that kids who haven’t eaten for three or four hours are generally bastards?

Gao_Bohan · October 8, 2014, 12:58pm

Well, you’re wrong. The laws of those 40 nations are written to specifically ban all forms of physical punishment against children. They had public debates, hearings, etc., and decided to ban physical punishments against children. Why don’t they call it “spanking”? You realize that most nations in the world have their own languages, right?

Rocket · October 8, 2014, 1:12pm

[quote=“robert the bruce”]China Post, Taipei, 2 April 2004