What was the point of the students' demands? The Sunflower Movement revisited

I usually read the BBC. In a current article (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26743794), it says:

Over the nearly two-week protest, the students are no longer just asking for the government to cancel the agreement and do a thorough review. They are insisting the two parties work constructively together to pass a law to supervise all future negotiations with Beijing and not sign any more agreements until such a law is passed… Mr Ma - who has long touted Taiwan’s democracy as a shining example in Asia - has said a supervision mechanism already exists, as many of the agreements signed with China need to be ratified by parliament. But the ruling Kuomintang party controls a majority of the legislative seats and the president controls the ruling party. The students and others in Taiwan are uncomfortable with this set-up.

The way I understand it:

  • They are not demanding referendum on every treaty with the mainland.
  • They want a law that makes the government take time to scrutinize every little detail whenever a new treaty is drafted with the mainland.

What is the point? This means that the treaty is closely examined, but eventually will be passed anyway just like before?! The only difference is that it will take more time. What is the point? Did I miss something?

This response is long. But it’s accurate.

The BBC report got the demands slightly wrong. The students never formally asked for a “cancelling” of the agreement; they went it “sent back” (退回) to the Executive Yuan, and they don’t want the Executive Yuan to give it to the legislature for another review until the “supervision law” is implemented. Once that happens, though, the services pact can go through the proper review process at the Legislative Yuan and get endorsed as it inevitably will.

Their argument is that there is not really a formal way of handling agreements with China. The government signs each pact behind closed doors and then tosses it, eventually, to the Legislative Yuan for endorsement. At issue this time around is what happened March 17.

The KMT wanted to start a meeting, headed by lawmaker Chang Ching-chung, to let the legislature’s eight committees review the trade-in-services pact item-by-item as the party had promised the DPP. But they were unable to start the meeting due to opposition from DPP lawmakers, who occupied the podium in an attempt to prevent Chang from presiding. Undeterred, he retreated to a corner with a wireless microphone, from which he declared the review meeting had begun, and within less than minute’s time, declared the meeting adjourned and the pact reviewed.

That means that, if things went the way the KMT wanted, they would be able to put the pact to a floor vote among all legislators, which the KMT with its majority would easily win. In other words, they managed to side-step the review process entirely. The only reason the plan failed is that these students began occupying the legislature the day after.

Chang’s iffy-at-best explanation for how he forced the pact through the committee session is that he labeled the pact an “executive order;” indeed, the law governing the powers of the LY does explicitly state that executive orders go into effect within three months of being issued, even if lawmakers have not successfully completed their review of the order. The question is whether an economic agreement can count as an executive order in the first place. On that matter, even Chang is uncertain, saying that it would take a legal expert to make the call, and yet his party insists the pact has already been reviewed. Depending on who you ask, a floor vote may not even be necessary. If the three-month regulation stands, the Executive Yuan can announce the service trade pact has gone into effect whenever it feels like it, lawmakers be damned.

Suspicious, though, is why the administration waiting until nine months after the pact was signed to invoke the three-month rule.

The whole debacle speaks to a lack of standardized practices when dealing with controversial treaties. Trade pacts probably have a relatively limited impact on Taiwan’s future, but can you imagine what would happen if the Ma administration unilaterally signed a peace agreement with China and pushed it through the legislature in this way? What about, hypothetically, an agreement to unify with the mainland or a formal declaration of independence? Protesters are worried because Ma’s clout in his own party and his role as the head of government mean the Legislative Yuan is basically a rubber stamp parliament for him (when the otherwise impotent DPP isn’t making a raucous, that is). They feel the only way to improve supervision over how cross-strait deals are handled is to introduce a law formally requiring it.

I hope that helps answer your question.

1 Like

Here we are, ten years after the student protests / Sunflower Movement in which the protestors took over the Legislative Yuan to try to block the impending passage of a services trade agreement with Beijing. With the rifts in the ruling KMT—let’s just say that President Ma and his pro-China tilt was not universally loved by all party members—the protests actually worked, stopping the passage of this agreement and eventually leading to a smashing electoral defeat of the KMT in the next election.

A decade later in 2024, we’re getting some retrospective looks at this decisive moment in Taiwan’s modern history. I’ll start by posting this excellent report by Helen Davidson writing at the Guardian:

Guy

5 Likes

And: here is an informative interview with movement participant Brian Hioe, better known today for his tireless work as a journalist at New Bloom. Hioe notes he had grown up in New York, and had experienced the Occupy Wall Street movement. The events in Taipei in 2014 saw related tactics mobilized to try to redirect the political machine in Taiwan.

Guy

3 Likes

This one is really good: a ten minute feature on the Sunflower movement told from the perspective of local filmmaker and educator Tobie Openshaw, interweaving his reflections on the movement with some stunning video work from 2014.

Guy

5 Likes

One last retrospective look at the movement, this time from C Donovan Smith in his first feature story at the Taipei Times. He focuses particularly on United Front activities from the PRC and its now well documented use of transnational repression to intimidate and silence dissidents. Many individuals and families around the world are now suffering from these activities. One little appreciated aspect of the Sunflower Movement is how it cut down some key ways these strategies could and would have been used here in Taiwan.

Guy

5 Likes

Some of the potential security ramifications could be true but a little over egged, for instance Taiwan’s NHI records are already for sale on the black market .

2 Likes

I’ve still got quite a few pics of that event taken on almost my first mobile phone. I think I had one mobile prior to that in the UK. I just randomly took pictures.

1 Like

So boring and full of cliches. Forgive me for being bold, but what pays for English teachers in Taiwan and third-rate journalists? And fourth-rate activists? :clown_face: :cowboy_hat_face:

Answer: a thriving economy.

And like it or not, pragmatists want to have access to the Chinese market.

Trade arrangements are not the boogeyman of the left, nor the panacea of the right. That’s a balanced view. But having fascists who storm the legislature complaining about other fascists. Oh, the irony. I see them not as freedom fighers but Green Cultural Revolution Maoists :clown_face: :clown_face: :clown_face:. And sympathetic Western papers? What was it Lenin said about George Bernard Shaw? Useful idiots and all of that. :laughing: :laughing:

Sorry, it’s very:

Taiwan’s GDP has grown more than 40% over the last eight years while rapidly disengaging with China. Now that Taiwanese business is afraid to invest in China, it is investing here at home and we are benefiting tremendously.

Of course Taiwan would like to have access to the Chinese market and a normal relationship with its enormous neighbor. But for now the security risks greatly outweigh the benefits.

The Sunflowers were right. A decade has gone past without any political instability here so their intervention does not seem to have done any lasting harm to democratic institutions and may have even strengthened them. After all, the next lot that tries to sell out Taiwan will have to think carefully.

Comparing the Sunflower movement to Maoist red guards is just plain ignorant.

3 Likes

If you’re willing to post some of those photos here in this thread, it’d be awesome to see them.

Guy

1 Like

Yes please carry on—like that proposed services agreement with a nation intent on annexing us is just what we needed.

Meanwhile, here in the actually existing Taiwan, not in the textbook style neoliberal fantasy land you apparently inhabit, we actually are doing quite well without that proposed deal. Who would have thought?

EDIT: Plus everything that @foc wrote, far more politely than I did. :slightly_smiling_face:

Guy

1 Like

Both stormed established institutions, no? Both led by students. Surrounding and occupying the Legislative Yuan? And let’s not even start on the outing similarities when it comes to perceived domestic enemies. It’s what Madame Mao did to Liu Shaoqi. The look of the dude in the bottom left. Put a straw hat on him, a bottle of Whisbih, and he’s a Sunflower!

Now that Taiwanese business is afraid to invest in China, it is investing here at home and we are benefiting tremendously.

Very ignorant notions of protectionism. If the world looked inwards so comprehensively, it would be closed borders and possibly a great depression. Research the Hawley-Smoot tariffs and its effect on the Great Depression.

To me, even as someone who supports US/Japan foreign policy with respect to protecting Taiwan, if necessary, you need to have adults in charge when it comes to trade (that’s a moderate KMT position/light green DPP position). Diversify as per the Go South strategy. Not against it. But liberalizing services with China is good, as it is with any country (with the appropriate carve outs and safeguards). Read the text that would have been adopted. Liberalized Chinese sectors more comprehensively than Taiwan ones. Was asymmetrical in that regard to Taiwan’s favor. Such ignorance here. Shame when countries look inwards. It might be fine now, but should such thinking take root domestically?

There is no evidence that anyone mobilized the students in Taiwan. There was no Madame Mao and there was no Liu Shaoqi. There were no struggle sessions and no violence with the exception of some doled out by the police. The ‘institutions’ you speak of in China were the facade of a Leninist party. In the end, the ‘contradictions’ in Taiwanese society were resolved at the ballot box. A decade later, those who disagree with the Sunflowers have democratically gotten some of their power back.

Very ignorant notions of protectionism. If the world looked inwards so comprehensively, it would be closed borders and possibly a great depression. Research the Hawley-Smoot tariffs and its effect on the Great Depression.

Taiwan has not raised tariffs on all of its trading partners. In general, it has not raised tariffs on China. In turn, Taiwan’s trading partners have not raised tariffs on Taiwanese goods or prohibited them except for China. Tariffs, as you will recall, are imposed on goods. The Cross-Strait Service Trade Agreement (CSSTA) was about services. Taiwan is very enthusiastic about other free trade agreements such as the one with New Zealand that is coming into full effect soon. Taiwan would love to join the CPTPP and and NAFTA if it could.

Taiwan’s decision not to implement the CSSTA is nothing like the US’s enactment of Smoot–Hawley. Taiwan was also not in the throes of a ghastly depression, so the context was completely different too.

This comparison is as inept as the previous one. In both cases, there is a very telling lack of any grounding in empirical fact.

4 Likes

You clearly mentioned a preference for protectionism and investing domestically. And you used the word “afraid”! I’m sure victims of the Cultural Revolution were very afraid too!! :laughing: :clown_face:

Now that Taiwanese business is afraid to invest in China, it is investing here at home and we are benefiting tremendously.

The spirit articulated in your words above go against liberalizing services or goods in any trade arrangement whether inside or outside of China. :laughing:

Which makes me think it’s not just anti-China sentiments being displayed by some of these woke quasi-Marxist Sunflowers, but anti-trade in general. I’ve seen it in Canada many times with Maude Barlow’s Council of Canadians, certain parts of the NDP, and other quasi-Marxist economic nationalist groups that really are anti-trade and inwards looking as you seem to prefer. What pays for the safety net in Taiwan, mate? Or Johnny Foreigner’s English teaching salary? :laughing: A nation with a robust and globally connected economy with minimal goods and services barriers.

On other trade arrangements—@foc Should Taiwan accede to CPTPP as you seem to hope for, I could just see these student clowns, and foreign troublemaker leftist agitators in Taiwan, really protesting Investor State Dispute Settlement (ISDS) in the same way, especially if it challenges domestic Hoklo business superiority/protectionism. If a foreigner ever opens a buxiban that challenges the established ones in a Taiwan small town, it often gets really nasty right? :clown_face: Taiwan is hardly a beacon of tolerance despite some token measures (e.g., same-sex marriage), as us long-termers know (and who were on Forumosa in the time of such wise posters such as Comrade Stalin).

You are right, tariffs are low due to various WTO rounds (which Taiwan acceded to when Tsai was a trade negotiator) but remember, lots of Taiwan special interest groups (e.g., farmers) screamed and kicked in a Red Guard manner when that was liberalized back in the early 2000s. Do you remember that?

As you mention, the main barriers to trade these days are service related, which are not nearly as liberalized through WTO GATS. Tariffs are already low, but non-tariff barriers in general and services barriers still abound.

But how could such asymmetry not be in Taiwan’s favor in such a very limited arrangement (had it been ratified) as what had been proposed? They made a mountain out of a molehill in my opinion. With Cultural Revolution fervor to boot.

Reactionary Sunflower youth **not understanding/respecting their technocrats or the institutions. ** So much like the Cultural Revolution.

From the link you provided:

Up to 64 Taiwanese industries and up to 80 Chinese industries will be opened

Substantive replies always welcomed.

Sure, unfortunately I could only find two.Everything seems to go away in the end. If I find anymore I’ll post , these are just two anti government leaflets stuck in the walls of the government building they were I occupying…

2 Likes

And reflective of the lack of substance in a good debate. :clown_face: :clown_face: :cowboy_hat_face:

TIL being a student, peacefully protesting, and calling out specific politicians for perceived faults is red guard-ism. That’s all it takes. Tread carefully, my fellow forumosans.

Truly, eye-opening.

2 Likes