What Would You Do If You Were an Unemployed Computer Programmer?

Discussion Open Forum
1

Have any of you been paying attention to what’s happening to computer-related (and now banking and financial services-related) jobs in the U.S. and other advanced countries? They are going overseas. Here’s a recent news report on the issue:

story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s … _jobs_dc_1

I’ve got several friends who are in computer and tech fields. Some are unemployed as a result of this job drain, with no real prospects for reemployment.

What would you recommend to people in this situation? I thought being in business was rough (takes 4-6 months to find a great job in management if you lose one back home). For many of these folks, there simply are no jobs.

Would you recommend Taiwan as a staging ground for a career shift? What could someone with a B.S. and/or M.S. in a technical field do in Taiwan? Is teaching English or editing the main option?

2

The one-in-ten-tech-jobs-will-move-to-India-next-year thing is really only the tip of the approaching asteroid. Some of the big accounting firms are already moving their lower-level accounting jobs to India, and just verifying the statements after the Indians are done creating them. Mechanical engineering (automotive, etc.) jobs are also being sent off to India and Russia, for example GM’s “24-hour engineering” program, which is relocating a lot of their automotive engineering to India.

Call centers and support jobs have already been moving to India. Generally speaking, any job which can be done over a telephone or internet connection will probably leave the U.S., including some high-skill jobs people wouldn’t normally think of – radiology can largely be offshored, since it’s mostly just reading and interpreting the images, which are now all digitized.

While retraining is always an option, anyone choosing to try it is going to have to be a bit of a futurist to decide which jobs are going to be offshored and which ones can’t be. Most of the jobs that programmers’ talents are well-suited for are the types of jobs which will be leaving the country – statisticians / actuaries / engineers / accountants, and so on.

Unfortunately, the U.S. government doesn’t seem to care about whether people are employed or not. They’d rather let businesses bring in foreign workers – part of why the tech crunch hit so hard was because companies were allowed to bring in as many Indians on H1-B “temporary” visas as they wanted. Even now, companies are still bringing in more Indians, while perfectly qualified Americans are unemployed. And the feds are extending this to other “high demand” professions such as nursing, so those hands-on careers are not necessarily a refuge.

I’d say the best option is to retrain as bankruptcy lawyers. :expressionless:

3

[quote=“MaPoDoFu”]The one-in-ten-tech-jobs-will-move-to-India-next-year thing is really only the tip of the approaching asteroid. Some of the big accounting firms are already moving their lower-level accounting jobs to India, and just verifying the statements after the Indians are done creating them. Mechanical engineering (automotive, etc.) jobs are also being sent off to India and Russia, for example GM’s “24-hour engineering” program, which is relocating a lot of their automotive engineering to India.

Call centers and support jobs have already been moving to India. Generally speaking, any job which can be done over a telephone or internet connection will probably leave the U.S., including some high-skill jobs people wouldn’t normally think of – radiology can largely be offshored, since it’s mostly just reading and interpreting the images, which are now all digitized.

While retraining is always an option, anyone choosing to try it is going to have to be a bit of a futurist to decide which jobs are going to be offshored and which ones can’t be. Most of the jobs that programmers’ talents are well-suited for are the types of jobs which will be leaving the country – statisticians / actuaries / engineers / accountants, and so on.

Unfortunately, the U.S. government doesn’t seem to care about whether people are employed or not. They’d rather let businesses bring in foreign workers – part of why the tech crunch hit so hard was because companies were allowed to bring in as many Indians on H1-B “temporary” visas as they wanted. Even now, companies are still bringing in more Indians, while perfectly qualified Americans are unemployed. And the feds are extending this to other “high demand” professions such as nursing, so those hands-on careers are not necessarily a refuge.

I’d say the best option is to retrain as bankruptcy lawyers. :|[/quote]

You sound just like Michael Moore.

4

it’s much much much easier for an unemployed computer programmer to find a new job than almost any other profession.

all the doom and gloom was around in the 80’s. then the boom came and people realized that though a few hundred thousand jobs were lost, millions were created.

in many ways, michael moore and pat buchanan think in exactly the same way. protectionism is endemic both to the far right and the far left.

what’s surprising is that someone on THIS forum would support a don’t hire foreigners view. considering foreigners here not only take away jobs from taiwanese, they also command much higher salaries here(unlike the us where foreigners generally accept a lower relative salary).

5

and as an unemployed computer programmer myself, i don’t blame the foreign workers. i blame inept managers, stupid financiers, and the collapse of the unsustainable stock market. blaming indian or chinese workers for unemployment caused by the global recession is just ethnic scapegoating.

6

I have some info to add here-
I just graduated (Dec. 2002) from a computer science/engineering department (Master’s Degree) at a large university in the States. 3-5 years ago, 100% of the graduates found employment by graduation with huge signing bonuses. This year (fall 2002, spring 2003) 35% had job offers by graduation.

Some of my classmates are still looking. Many went back to their old jobs.

As for me… if I had not had connections in Taiwan, I would most likely still be unemployed in the States.

Maybe all those unemployed computer people can come to Taiwan to work as technical specialists, sales people, tech writers, etc. There’s actually a lot of demand here for those kind of people. The hitch is, you have to actually enjoy living in Taiwan.

7

I don’t know what country you’re talking about, but it sure isn’t the U.S. Most of the people I know who have lost their jobs since 2000 are either still unemployed or exhausted their UI benefits long before they found another job. Typically it’s taken a year and a half to find another job, and usually that job is nowhere nearly at the same skill level, much less pay level, of the job they had before.

[quote=“Alleycat”]You sound just like Michael Moore.
[/quote]
I’m almost as fat as Michael Moore! But not as ugly. :stuck_out_tongue: And I don’t think I sound anything like him.

I’m not calling for protectionism or blaming foreign workers. I am saying that the federal government shouldn’t be allowing people to move here solely to take jobs at lower pay. If someone immigrates to the U.S. and then gets a job, great. But for the U.S. government to let a company get a visa for an employee, SOLELY to bring someone in to work for low pay, simply because the company doesn’t want to pay an American worker – it’s damaging to everyone.

GM didn’t bring in tens of thousands of Mexicans to work in its plants; GM took the time and trouble to relocate its manufacturing to Mexico.

Tyson Foods sent trucks to the border to bring in wetbacks for chicken processing, and (last I heard) was being prosecuted in federal court for immigration violations as a result.

Meanwhile, a Boeing subcontractor called me to arrange an interview to go back to my old job (same exact one I did for Boeing three years ago, sitting in the same floor in the same building, about four cubicles down from my old one). Turns out they were told that they couldn’t get an H1-B visa approved since Boeing had recently laid off so many people with identical skills to what they were requesting. Instead, without even bothering to interview me, the company’s manager flew to Washington D.C. to lobby the INS in person (read: probably to fork over some “Christmas cash” to the INS visa approver), got the visa approved this time, and came back. About a week later, an Indian programmer started at Boeing, sitting in that cubicle. All without even bothering to talk to me after arranging that interview with me as a “last-ditch backup”.

Not only does this directly violate the H1-B visa law, it means that I, and others like me, are unemployed while Indians are brought in to replace us at jobs we could do.

Incidentally, the pay rate they quoted me was 56% of what I had been making at that job three years earlier. I have no idea what they’re paying the Indian, but it’s probably about half that. And since the feds don’t take Social Security taxes for H1-B visa workers, that means less money being paid into the SocSec program, less tax revenue for the feds, more unemployment compensation being paid out to me (and others in the same boat). . . .

Who benefits? Well, the Indian gets to save a few bucks to take home with him when he goes back. Boeing saves a very small amount, since the contracting company isn’t going to change how much they’re charging Boeing. The contracting company makes a bundle since they’re paying less in wages. Everyone else loses.

These jobs are already being lost as fast as companies can set up an internet connection to Bangalore. With real unemployment running over 10% now – the 6.4% rate is people currently collecting benefits, and doesn’t count those who have already exhausted their benefits – it is insanity itself to import more workers just so companies can save a buck. In effect, these jobs are just as “lost” as the jobs that have moved offshore.

8

tell me what kind of programming they do and what city they live in and i can go online and find you a bunch of job listings for a job in their city. how many other professions have that advantage? computer programmers are more in demand, get paid more, and much more marketable than most other professions. i would feel more sorry for say an unemployed mechanic or unemployed human resources person than a computer programmer.

not to say it’s a bed of roses being an unemployed computer programmer in the us right now, but it’s better than being an unemployed anything else.

9

Mapodufu wrote:

(In-joke alert!) That’s why I won’t to travel to the states anymore. I refuse to support a government will treat its own people like this. :laughing:

10

I would collect some of the most embarrassing mistakes on the English versions of Taiwanese companies’ websites, then write them e-mails (preferably in Chinese) politely telling them how funny their websites are. Then I’d offer my services to improve their sites (this improvement doesn’t have to be limited to correcting the language, since many sites are overloaded with flash animations or just ugly, I would offer to redesign the entire thing). Thinking further, I could place online advertisements for them (like Google Adwords), implement a Corporate Identity concept, etc.

The possibilities are endless, particularly if you combine your technical skills with some marketing skills. However, having some “connections” (this could be a local partner) can make things much easier.

Ok, that’s my free business idea for tonight.

P.S.: I need an excuse for not having one of my colleagues spend several days trying to correct the terrible English on a Chinese business partner’s website. What about “a hacker deleted everything and changed your FTP password, so we can’t have a look at it and you can’t upload it again” or “our provider deleted your website because it was so ugly” (it’s hosted on our server)? :wink:

–
Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk?

11

I would collect some of the most embarrassing mistakes on the English versions of Taiwanese companies’ websites, then write them e-mails (preferably in Chinese) politely telling them how funny their websites are. Then I’d offer my services to improve their sites (this improvement doesn’t have to be limited to correcting the language, since many sites are overloaded with flash animations or just ugly, I would offer to redesign the entire thing). Thinking further, I could place online advertisements for them (like Google Adwords), implement a Corporate Identity concept, etc.
[/quote]

There’s already companies doing this, firmly planted companies with fluent Chinese speakers who have lots of good connections.

12

I would collect some of the most embarrassing mistakes on the English versions of Taiwanese companies’ websites, then write them e-mails (preferably in Chinese) politely telling them how funny their websites are. Then I’d offer my services to improve their sites (this improvement doesn’t have to be limited to correcting the language, since many sites are overloaded with flash animations or just ugly, I would offer to redesign the entire thing). Thinking further, I could place online advertisements for them (like Google Adwords), implement a Corporate Identity concept, etc.

The possibilities are endless, particularly if you combine your technical skills with some marketing skills. However, having some “connections” (this could be a local partner) can make things much easier.

Ok, that’s my free business idea for tonight.

P.S.: I need an excuse for not having one of my colleagues spend several days trying to correct the terrible English on a Chinese business partner’s website. What about “a hacker deleted everything and changed your FTP password, so we can’t have a look at it and you can’t upload it again” or “our provider deleted your website because it was so ugly” (it’s hosted on our server)? :wink:

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Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk?[/quote]

Have you considered the reasons why websites, brochures, and advertisements are so ridden with English errors? My favorite example is a hair salon sign I once saw in Taipei offering a “Blow Job” for NT$200. :laughing:

Unfortunately, most Taiwanese companies don’t give a shit about the fact that their promotional material is ridden with mistakes.

13

tell me what kind of programming they do and what city they live in and I can go online and find you a bunch of job listings for a job in their city. how many other professions have that advantage? computer programmers are more in demand, get paid more, and much more marketable than most other professions. I would feel more sorry for say an unemployed mechanic or unemployed human resources person than a computer programmer.

not to say it’s a bed of roses being an unemployed computer programmer in the US right now, but it’s better than being an unemployed anything else.[/quote]
Uh . . . Flipper, you don’t seem to understand. You are talking about ads on web boards. I am talking about where the rubber meets the road.

Want a job as a waiter? There’ll be a few openings when the kids go back to school next month. Want a job as a programmer? Wait for someone to die, and hope like hell that the manager’s nephew didn’t graduate with a CS degree in the last two years – odds are that the kid is still unemployed. Of course, that’s only if the company is actually planning on replacing the deceased; they might well decide they’re going to try to save some of their budget and operate shorthanded for a while. Or they might decide it’s time to test the “offshoring” waters and hire an Indian through one of the many online Indian agencies; if someone has to learn the job from scratch, why pay an American $40K (and dropping) to do it when an Indian will do it for $10K?

On Tuesday, I got a call from an old employer of mine. I had submitted a resume to them in early May for a position they were advertising. Three months later, they actually got around to the first step toward actually filling that position. It might take them six months more to hire someone for it – or maybe they never will. My bet is that their client will “offshore” those jobs within the next year.

I can find dozens of ads for “jobs” in my area. None of these jobs exist in reality. They are placeholders that HR staffers post so that the HR staffers look like they’re doing something, and so that the HR staffers can collect resumes in case a job ever does open up.

Want a job doing Linux/C++ programming in Seattle? Angeline Yu Recruiting of San Jose, CA has eight job openings for that – and she’s been advertising those exact same “eight jobs” every six weeks since mid-2001. To the best of my knowledge, neither I nor anyone else I know who has applied for them has ever been called back, much less granted an interview, despite our having excellent qualifications that more than match what she is asking for. She’s just collecting resumes in case she ever gets a client who is looking for a Linux/C++ programmer.

Yesterday afternoon, I sold my dresser and bed to a guy who is now the only representative of his “system integration” company in Seattle – everyone else has already lost their jobs because there’s no work coming in. The only reason he still has a job is so the company can “maintain an office” in Seattle for “when the recovery comes”. But he was worrying that he might not have it for much longer even though he’s the entire “office”.

“In demand”? It is to laugh. Programmers were “in demand” through early 2001. Now, the only programmers who are “in demand” are the ones in Bangalore, India, where Boeing, Microsoft, GM, and other companies are opening tech centers as fast as the concrete can harden.

14

No matter what you do, there’s almost always somebody already doing it. :wink: Of course, you have to do some sort of market study first and think about the competitive advantages you could offer.

Anyway, I doubt that there’s already companies doing exactly what I proposed: I’m not saying “find companies which don’t have a website and design one for them”, I’m saying “find companies with lousy websites and offer to improve them”. Of course, I acknowledge that finding those sites should be much easier than getting companies to pay for your services. But if I were an unemployed computer programmer with little hope of finding a new job (and if I could speak decent English), I would give it a try. After all, my costs of opportunity would be zero.

Nice girls working there? Sounds like a bargain! :laughing:

I know, but on the other hand many of those companies pay huge amounts of money to participate in trade fairs (I’m not talking about hair salons here). So, maybe if you could convince them that a website is something like a permanent trade fair…

Or exploit their desire to “save face”: Set up a website like “Top100EmbarrassingSites.com” and place your potential customers on the top of the list before you contact them (“If you’re wondering how I found your website…”).

Have a nice weekend!