What's your level of personal intergity?

This topic has been done to death before, but I got this email concerning a job and I thought we could talk about it not about in terms of right or wrong, but on the level of personal intergity…

[quote]Hi Namahottie,

I don’t want to waste your time, but my school has a reputation for
not hiring people who aren’t white or ABC or CBC (cuz we translate for
them) :frowning:. I know this from what I’ve heard from other foreign teachers
who have tried to get substitutes who were black or Indian.

[color=darkred]It TOTALLY sucks and it pisses me off that this is the situation and I
have to tell you this, but you deserve to know straight up what the
deal is.[/color]

Best of luck, and I hope you get an awesome job.

XXXX[/quote]

Where do you draw the line at how much you would support, that you know back in your home country you would have you be scorned for? During my time here in Taiwan, I have seen people become committed to several causes, but never to the cause of eradicating the belief system here when it comes to hiring pracitices. Where’s the spirit of Ghandi, Martin Luther King Jr., Malcom X, etc. in us?

Sorry but what exactly is “intergity”? At first I thought it was just a typo but you’ve clearly stated it as “intergity” in the title and opening sentence of this topic.

I am embarrassed that as an English teacher I have yet to come across this word(can’t find it in a dictionary either) so please unburden me.

P.S. I’m jest feckin wit ya! :smiley: :smiley:

I think there is a fundamental difference here among us foreigners from back at home. Back home we are citizens. It is our society that is being reflected when there are prejudicial practices. So we are well in our rights to step forward and point out something that’s unfair and fight for our, or other’s, rights.

Here in Taiwan, though, we aren’t citizens. We are visiting aliens. Not only do we lack the political power to affect serious change, we also have to deal with the fact that we are passing judgement on another society. The US in particular already has a pretty bad history of pushing our values on other cultures and we have a bad enough reputation as it is.

I’d suggest three main factors on this specific issue:

  1. A level of ambivalence to the problem. I can see the point of view of buxiban owners. They think they have an economic reason to prefer a specific skin tone. I don’t agree with that point of view, but I understand it, so I’m not all that likely to cry foul. I think this will apply to a number of others.
  2. Lack of power. Aside from a very few APRC holders and natualized citizens, we basically have no voice. Unlike citizens and permanent residents at home, we aren’t allowed to organize and can be silenced without much difficulty if we stir up too much trouble.
  3. Moral low-ground. As I outlined above, it’s a difficult thing to pass moral judgement on another society.

Of course, there’s always room for a lack of integrity as the reason. The points above could really be the cause of silence on this sort of issue, or they can be the rationalizations that help people sleep when they fail to act courageously. “It’s not affecting me, so why make a fuss?”

[quote]I think there is a fundamental difference here among us foreigners from back at home. Back home we are citizens. It is our society that is being reflected when there are prejudicial practices. So we are well in our rights to step forward and point out something that’s unfair and fight for our, or other’s, rights.

Here in Taiwan, though, we aren’t citizens. We are visiting aliens. Not only do we lack the political power to affect serious change, we also have to deal with the fact that we are passing judgment on another society. The US in particular already has a pretty bad history of pushing our values on other cultures and we have a bad enough reputation as it is.[/quote] Where are we passing judgment when we say we won

Namahottie, I agree with you 100%. I see foreigners organizing to: help mistreated and abandoned animals, petition for better English programming on ICRT, and fight for fair banking practices. I think it’s a shame that foreigners won’t unite against discriminatory hiring practices.

I agree that a big part of it is ambivalence. Just like the person who responded to your job application. This person said it makes him/her angry and it totally sucks. Well if that’s the case, then why is this person working there? It is a matter of personal integrity. Personally, I wouldn’t work at a place if I knew they discriminated against people of color. I just won’t support that kind of mentality. Aside from this, what else can we foreigners in Taiwan do to change the situation? Any ideas?

Counter the argument “no customer wants dark skin, they only want white.” Start your own business and hire based on ability not colour. Work hard, get profitable. Lead by example.

Just about everything else is discussion and arguement. Results count.

OOc

Namahottie, at first glance, I didn’t know why you had to ask… it is surely a topic that’s been done to death. But then you go on to ask if the topic could be discussed not “in terms of right or wrong, but on the level of personal integrity,” so I’ve got to ask how you separate right and wrong from personal integrity. (Or does your definition of personal integrity not extend beyond consistency to address the content of the beliefs and passions that lead to action?) And trying to be a person of moral integrity has EVERYTHING to do with judgment, the kind practiced daily in the choices that one makes, hopefully on the basis of maturity, wisdom, empathy, ect…

Did you have another direction in which you wanted to take this or did you just really need to vent? (Which is understandable.)

Puiwaihin, sorry, but your analysis just doesn’t cut it.

  1. The buxiban owners’ economic interests extend beyond skin colour to having quality instructors… and that’s an easy argument for them to make, particularly given the quality (or lack thereof) of many of the fair-haired bandits here. Besides, economics doesn’t exhaust the scope of their interests; they’re people before they’re business people, and everyone should expect a certain MINIMAL level of decency from others, regardless of culture.
    2, Resident aliens do NOT lack voices, we simply have to be more creative in making them heard. Namahottie’s reference to Gandhi is appropriate: he, an alien, was able to bring about significant changes in South Africa long before he became a force in India.
  2. It is difficult to pass judgment on another society; it’s less difficult to express your surprise at some of its practices and ASK why such things are done. You might be enlightened by the answer and happy not to have gone off half-cocked and looking for a fight. Or you might shed some light on one of the dark corners of this other society and encourage a reassessment of its injustices. But that’s all secondary. The REAL difficulty–the first difficult that defeats too many who come up against it–is taking a stand (against your own interests) on behalf of someone else who can easily be ignored and forgotten.

That said, I think you get it right at the end: the reasons given for remaining silent are likely just rationalizations.

Silence is a political statement, and the people who continue to work at schools that practice discrimination should consider what their quiescence says about them… starting with your friend, Namahottie, the one who wished you luck. A little more courage and integrity on his/her part and you might not need so much luck.

Yeah, that works… sort of. It’s cost me jobs, which were filled by other “suitable” candidates, but at least you can sleep easy at night.

Here’s an idea to consider: the Taiwanese prejudice against learning English from dark-skinned people extends to…the Taiwanese! There are a lot of qualified Taiwanese English teachers either looking for work or scraping by on pretty meagre salaries because parents want their kids to have the right accent. Mom and dad end up blowing wads of cash to have their kids parrot an entertaining foreigner for a portion of each day’s lesson, or to have their kid sit in class lost because s/he’s not yet at a sufficient level to follow the English only lesson.

So, how about this? It’s against our economic interests, but when it’s appropriate, try telling mom and dad that their little genius isn’t ready for a foreign teacher yet. Tell them to look for good local teachers (whether it’s when they’re looking for a school or a private teacher). For the same money (or less, can’t really expect everything to change over night) the kid will learn faster having someone who understands the difficulties first hand and who can explain it quickly and clearly in their own language. If it’s a private student in a wealthy household, tell the parents to ask their Filipino maid/nanny to teach the kids: extra money for the lady who really needs it and around the clock English for the kids… it’s a win-win situation.
For the lower-level students it just makes sense. When the students have a sufficient basis in English THEN let them seek out the higher priced native speakers.

When it comes to local sensibilities such an approach to the linguistic-colour barrier would be less shocking and might make it easier for them to accept darker-skinned foreign teachers later on.

(Of course, I should admit that I’ve tried to convince parents of this plan and they almost always fall back on the “But they will have an accent” excuse and hire a foreigner anyways.)

I’m not sure if you know, but the local people are also discriminated against. It’s not only foreigners… My wife has to send in a picture with every resume. If you are a married woman employers won’t hire you because of the baby thing. I’m just talking to my wife, and she says that it’s harder for obese people to find a job.

In my opinion, this is all throughout Asia. Korea was awful! Taiwan is not as bad… not sure about Japan… pretty sure China is the same as Taiwan.

I don’t have the energy to convince 23 million people that this is wrong. I’m having a hard enough time convincing my 100 students to think for themselves and respect others.

I used to have a black teacher working for me in a school. I had one or two parents express distaste, but I don’t recall anyone actually pulling their kid out of the school. He was otherwise a popular teacher and some of his students introduced their friends. The people who object are balanced by the ones who think it’s cool to have a black teacher. The majority don’t seem to know how to react and are prepared to give you the chance.

So I wouldn’t accept the ‘economic argument’, in fact I would turn it around and use it as a damn good reason for hiring you. Either you’ll turn them around or what they’re really saying is “I don’t like black people/Lithuanians/jews/fat people, therefore my customers won’t either, therefore I’m not going to hire any.” Either way it’s crap.

But in most cases you won’t get passed over because of your colour. There will be some other convenient excuse instead. How are you going to prove that there is a problem with the employer and not with you?

Assuming that Taiwan could be persuaded to pass a law prohibiting racial discrimination, and assuming it was extended to include foreigners, how are you ever going to prove that you didn’t get hired because of your colour? They’ll blame your availability, attitude, dress sense, accent, spelling, lack/excess of experience or qualifications, etc.

Beyond educating people - by example, not by lecturing - I don’t see what ‘we’ can do. Your situation is a bit different from, say, the animals thing.

One difference between animals and black people is that it’s easy to point and say “this dog is being badly treated”. You will find it very difficult to prove discrimination during the hiring process. And even if you did, the mere act of questioning the judgement of your future boss will almost certainly make you unemployable.

My advice is to simply be really really good at what you do. Get into the habit of not making obvious mistakes - by proofreading and editing everything you write, if necessary. Make a good first impression, get that interview, and since your colour isn’t supposed to be relevant to your ability to do the job then don’t make an issue of it. It’s worked for other people here.

There are fuckheads everywhere, with all sorts of stupid ideas and prejudices. Taiwan is no exception, but we all suffer discrimination here for various reasons and the only way to change it is to make sure that there is no reason for them to slight you and to stand up for yourself if they do. But asking ‘us’ to support you when there is nothing we can really do is rather pointless.

So whaddya want? Posters and marchers with placards proclaiming black people to be human too? I imagine most Taiwanese who noticed (if any) would be rather bemused by this. Forumosan activists spending time and money to help you out?

Stray Dog tries to find homes for dogs who need them, because he cares. I have helped many people here to find jobs, but - like Stray Dog - I am always careful about who I introduce to a school. I try to match suitable people with suitable jobs, just as SD matches dogs with owners.

Does this make me an activist? No. It makes me someone who cares enough to try and help people out when I can, but I don’t care what colour people are and I wouldn’t help them out just because of their ethnic background.

One of www.dictionary.com’s definitions for intergrity is:

[color=darkred] 1. Steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code.[/color]

One can separate ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ from personal integrity by realizing that there is no right and wrong, but realizing that having integrity means having

[quote=“Namahottie”]
One of www.dictionary.com’s definitions for intergrity is:

[color=darkred] 1. Steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code.[/color]

One can separate ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ from personal integrity by realizing that there is no right and wrong, but realizing that having integrity means having

[quote=“Namahottie”]Where are we passing judgment when we say we won

If I applied to a company and found out that they had discriminatory practices, I would be very thankful that I found out before comitting myself.

If I started working for a company and only later found out that they were prejudiced, I would discuss it with them and if nothing changed, I would give notice immediately. I think in many cases employers will use prejudice as a means of getting you to do more for less.

Note to the mods: I know the rules on multiple postings, but since the posts are long, I would to answer them in a couple of posts. Thanks…

[quote=“Loretta”]
But in most cases you won’t get passed over because of your colour. There will be some other convenient excuse instead. How are you going to prove that there is a problem with the employer and not with you?[/quote]
This was a case based on race, so there was no convenient excuse used here. Just some weasling(sp)

[quote]
Assuming that Taiwan could be persuaded to pass a law prohibiting racial discrimination, and assuming it was extended to include foreigners, how are you ever going to prove that you didn’t get hired because of your colour? They’ll blame your availability, attitude, dress sense, accent, spelling, lack/excess of experience or qualifications, etc.[/quote] TW doesn’t have to pass any laws probibting racial discrimination, althought they should give that they practice when it comes to dealing with other ethinic groups who are native to TW. How about this=They make it apart of that “constitution” they are gonna pass one day…And it’s easy to prove because when someone tells you that they won’t hire you because they don’t know how the kids or parents would react to having a black/ABC/CBC/Indian/African teacher what I am suppose to think they just told me?

[quote]
Beyond educating people - by example, not by lecturing - I don’t see what ‘we’ can do. Your situation is a bit different from, say, the animals thing.[/quote] No lecturing here, just tossing out a view to stimulate serious thought…

[quote]
One difference between animals and black people is that it’s easy to point and say “this dog is being badly treated”. You will find it very difficult to prove discrimination during the hiring process. And even if you did, the mere act of questioning the judgement of your future boss will almost certainly make you unemployable.[/quote] So what blacks aren’t being treated badly when the door is slammed in their face for what God blessed them with?:loco:

[quote]
My advice is to simply be really really good at what you do. Get into the habit of not making obvious mistakes - by proofreading and editing everything you write, if necessary. Make a good first impression, get that interview, and since your colour isn’t supposed to be relevant to your ability to do the job then don’t make an issue of it. It’s worked for other people here.[/quote] What does getting in the habit have to do with discriminating beliefs and practices? If someone doesn’t wanna hire me because of those beliefs, then what difference is my spelling and grammar knowledge gonna do?Can’t cook if you don’t have fire, my friend…

[quote]
So whaddya want? Posters and marchers with placards proclaiming black people to be human too? I imagine most Taiwanese who noticed (if any) would be rather bemused by this. Forumosan activists spending time and money to help you out?[/quote] This was never about black people. But I am sorry you feel that we are beneath your idea status level to be worthy of a fight. No what this is about being someone of integrity, so that when you are presented with an opportunity to do something about this pracitices you have the courage, and the strenght correct it.

[quote]
Stray Dog tries to find homes for dogs who need them, because he cares. I have helped many people here to find jobs, but - like Stray Dog - I am always careful about who I introduce to a school. I try to match suitable people with suitable jobs, just as SD matches dogs with owners.[/quote] Leave Stray Dog out of this…Naming people makes it personal, which this is not…

[quote=“Jaboney”]
So you do believe that integrity as consistency (playing by the rules, in your words) can be separated from the content of belief. Alright, in certain case, I think that’s true–although this isn’t one of them. And you also believe that there is no right and wrong??? I don’t believe that’s true, nor do I think that you believe it to be true, given your indignation.[/quote] Yes, I believe integrity is something that has consistency. You are practicing integrity when you arrive to work on time everyday. You are practicing integrity when you live on a budget in order to save. You practice integrity when you are exerising in order to maintain your health. Yes, I do believe there is no right or wrong thing. Humans have choice. In the Bible(example)it’s called Free Will. We have to capacity to pratice acceptance and unconditonal love, rather than judgment which is right and wrong in one word.

[quote]
You don

You know, I feel for those that invest in journeying over here only to be surprised by the facts about this place. Racism, dishonesty, flagrant fraud, etc all exist in higher degrees than we want or care for. But if I get the gist of the OP’s request, she wants me to quit my job and thusly, take food off my family’s table to try and change an immovable culture. Sorta like holding back the tide with a teaspoon, imo, and I am not gonna cut my nose off to appease your face. Sorry, that’s the reality and reality bites. Do you expect me to go back to cutting onions and peeling shrimp in some flea-bag hotel in Canada because racism and racist hiring practices exist here. Fer-fucking-git it.

Kojen and Hess don’t discriminate. Go work there. But don’t expect me to give up my job to fight an unwinnable battle. And don’t tell me I don’t have intergity because I won’t.

The airport is an hour’s drive south. Get on a plane and head for Shangri La if you can’t stand it here.

As I am not an English teacher I haven’t followed debates on blacklisting schools, but i assume that they exist.

I don’t even know whether I would personally support such a thing as a black list, because it could be too easily misused, but it would be comparably easy for everybody to contribute. You can’t expect a lot of people to quit their jobs, when they find out that the school owner is a racist. Work permits, ARCs to many things rely on a job. But these people could report their school.

The main thing about a blacklist is its credibility, so you would probably have to think of a rather complex mechanism to ensure that schools are not blacklisted because someone wants to take personal revenge for some other reason. Different categories/levels could perhaps do the job. I am sure there are plenty people out there that could think of something.

If Forumosa is not happy with publishing such a blacklist, it could be located in a separate place (different website), that has nothing to do with Forumosa. The website could be maintained by, well, by anyone with a reasonable degree of personal integrity.

Forumosa could then just refer to this list and inform the website administrators of blacklist-worthy English-teaching-jobs posts and at the same time remove these adds.

Forumosa could make it more obvious to people posting English teaching jobs (e.g. “read this before you post in this forum”-sticky), that such a blacklist exists.

Just some ideas, I am actually pretty sure that these things have been discussed numerous times. And maybe I should really leave this to the English teachers and keep my mouth shut…

[quote=“puiwaihin”]
How are we not passing judgment when we are telling another culture that they are being prejudiced? [/quote] You don

[quote=“Rupert Pupkin”]You know, I feel for those that invest in journeying over here only to be surprised by the facts about this place.[/quote] :laughing: :laughing: :notworthy: :bravo:

[quote] But if I get the gist of the OP’s request, she wants me to quit my job and thusly, take food off my family’s table to try and change an immovable culture. [/quote] I wasn’t at all suggesting that. I was questioning the differences in integrity that I see here. I don’t think quiting a job here would make an impact with the TW. Although if it shut down the industry they would get it. No, if you have the capacity to say something then step up to the plate. If you have the capacity to show someone another side of the coin, then try it. But if it doesn’t suit you, I ain’t gonna make you do it or feel bad for it…

[quote]
The airport is an hour’s drive south. Get on a plane and head for Shangri La if you can’t stand it here.[/quote] I rather go to the Caribbean if you can spare the $$$ :smiley: