Who is Christian?

Arts & Sciences Religion & Spirituality
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Where to begin…? Orthodox Christianity (“Eastern” is accepted only with some reluctance, in view of their pretentions to universality) involves a number of (often national) jurisdictions such as Greek Orthodoxy, Russian Orthodoxy, etc. which are held to fundamentally agree with one another in theology, though non-theological conflicts can be enough to bar some of them from communion with certain others. For example, at this writing, Russian Orthodox laity may not commune through churches affiliated with the Ecumenical Patriarchate, due to the latter’s support for Ukrainian autocephaly. The patriarchates of Antioch and Jerusalem are in a similar situation due to rival claims to the territory of Qatar. In Taiwan, members of the Greek and Russian churches here may not intercommune.

The Ecumenical Patriarch has canonical authority over Thessaloniki (including Athos) and half of what is now Turkey (minus the former Western Armenia), and is also supported financially by Greek churches in the USA (which is not under the authority of any one jurisdiction–unless one accepts the claims of the Russia-backed Orthodox Church in America to autocephaly, which only Moscow does). The rest of Greece is autocephalous. The EP is, and must be (by Turkish law), an ethnic Greek citizen of Turkey. The Orthodox patriarchs of Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem are also invariably ethnic Greeks.

There is another family of churches called (in English) Oriental Orthodox, which includes the Armenians and Copts. They are non-Chalcedonian; that is, they reject what “Eastern” Orthodox (and yes, I realize that “Oriental” means “Eastern”) regard as the Fourth Ecumenical Council. Inter-communion would be up to local bishops, and I think is practiced mostly in Middle Eastern countries like Syria. To further confuse matters there is in fact a Coptic pope.

All of these churches claim to be the “One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church,” as do the Roman Catholics. Here “Catholic” simply means “universal.”

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182

There are non-Trinitarian groups that have long been considered Christian, like the Unitarians. The US has had presidents who were that also. There are also Oneness Pentecostals of various denominations. Taiwan’s True Jesus Church is Oneness. Pentecostals don’t put a lot of stock on theological specifics, so in some of the larger churches those who do and don’t believe in the Trinity blend together.
What makes one a Christian depends on your definition. The restorationist Church of Christ believe one must be a member of one of their congregations to be a Christian, and many other restoration groups do as well. Certain Baptist groups believe anyone who is not part of a Baptist church is not a true Christian. While the Eastern Orthodox churches do not specifically define anyone outside their Church as “Christian” or not, they only recognize themselves as the Christian Church. There’s not much in Jehovah’s Witnesses beliefs or practice that you can’t find something similar elsewhere in Protestant churches. I think what makes many consider them non-Christian is that there is so much piled up together that makes them different from the larger Christian churches.
Mormons, however, have gone their own way. I think if a community starts adding prophets and sacred texts that take it in a different direction with a completely different belief system, it can justifiably be called a different religion. Buddhism has a lot of variety, but Yiguandao is no longer Buddhism. Nor is Tenrikyo. Definitions are only an issue when there’s a question of who is “within” and who is “without” and people have to figure out who to marry or elect or what rituals you can and can’t take part in.
It’s not really accurate to call Mormons polytheists, though. They have a completely different concept of the nature of God. I’m not clear on how it works, but they believe he is or was a physical being who was perfected. I don’t know their theology exactly, but their basic concepts are so completely different a label like polytheism doesn’t apply.

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Understand and appreciate your neutral comment, but it is far from being a “coping mechanism”, which by definition means “ways to which external or internal stress is managed”. The basic action of believing in God is as far from stressful as one might possibly get, imho.
For most it is an attempt to live a life of good, all the while knowing that mistakes (sins) will be made along the way. Correcting/amending those sins is another topic.

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184

Andrew, your understanding of Mormonism is flawed.

Latter Day Saints believe in God the Father as being the creator of the heavens and Earth and worlds without end. They believe Christ to be the spiritual and only begotten son and that every human is also a spiritual child of God the Father. Christ is their spiritual brother who they believe attoned for all mankind’s sins providing a way for sin to be forgiven through him.

Latter Day Saints do not worship any other God besides God the Father. They follow the New Testament as that is the doctorine of Christ which replaced the old ways of the Old Testament. After all, people are no longer being stoned to death for leaving their house on the Sabbath. The rules changed a bit after the implementation of the New Testament.

When Latter Day Saints pray they always do so to God the Father through Christ’s name.

“Dear Heavenly Father, we thank you for…blah blah blah…we ask for your understanding and forgiveness for…blah blah blah…we say these things in the name of your son Jesus Christ, amen.”

Clearly they are praying to only one God.

However, that does not mean there are no other God’s in existence. God the Father himself said he is a jealous God and commands that mankind not place any other God before him.

So one needs to define God. What exactly is a God? In the purest, simplest sense, God is a creator. The ultimate creator if you will. No other being that we know of can claim that title. A false God would be someone or something claiming that title or claiming ownership over mankind. People create their own Gods to worship. Praying to anyone but God the Father could be viewed as praying to someone not in charge…not the one true God. Hence why it’s a bit odd that Catholics pray to saints. That is idol worshipping in a way in my opinion.

If God is the ultimate creator and we are all his Children, then there is the possibility that we can learn to be like him. That is what Latter Day Saints believe. That, as spiritual children of God, we have the potential to learn his wisdom. That through the eternities (afterlife) we will continue to learn and grow spiritually on a constant mission for ultimate perfection. If you reach that goal then one becomes Godlike…not replacing the Father but in the likeness of the Father.

Latter Day Saints carry on the biblical tradition of prophets, seers and revelators. They believe prophets are still being called upon by God the Father and his Son through the Holy Spirit to help maintain and guide the church. Prophets even continued after Christ in the New Testament. One could argue that the apostles all were prophets. They believe in a living God, not one who no longer communicates through prophets, but one who did and continues to do so. Why would God stop doing that?

The other doctorine Latter Day Saints believe in is in addition to the Old and New Testaments. The Book of Mormon, Doctorine and Covenants and The Pearl of Great Price do not replace anything. They are a continuation of scripture.

The Bible was not written by one person at one time. It is a collection of writings from various people written over a vast expanse of time that were combined into one book. Stuff was left out, hand picked by man and translated numerous times. All of the versions have discrepancies with each other in slight ways and some major ways. That is one reason why Latter Day Saints believe God the Father continues to call on prophets to lead to help clear up the discrepancies and prevent things from getting mucked up any further.

In the grand scheme of things, if there is indeed a supreme being who we owe alegenience to, I highly doubt this being (God) would really care who calls themselves Christian or not. I think he would be wise enough to see past that and look at actions instead. If one claims to be Christian, it means they are followers of Christ and as such would be striving to be Christlike in all that they do. That, in my book, is a Christian. So yeah, is a Latter Day Saint a Christian? If they are following Christ’s teachings, then yeah, sure they are.

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185

What you said sounds nice but it has major problems theologically.

It contradicts scripture (the word of God), and Jesus. You can’t be a follower of Jesus if you contradict him and the word of god.

Are you saying god lied? There’s other gods but he’s jealous…and lied so people can worship him? That’s the most theologically unsound thing that anyone can pick apart.

Mormons say god the father was flesh? Bible says god the father is spirit.

“God is spirit” (John 4:24), and according to Jesus, spirit has no flesh. (Luke 24:39). The Bible also teaches that God is invisible (Col. 1:15), which implies God he doesn’t have a physical body. How can God be pure spirit and have a body at the same time?

How can god be once a man when the Bible states god can not change.

When asked who he was. He answered “i am”

How can the plurality of god be true when it states there is one God literally everywhere from the old to New Testament?

It’s not a issue with I have deistic view where god just left after creation and plays no role anymore. It’s that Joseph Smith, and the Mormons holy book that no one else recognizes contradicts Jesus and the Bible.

Not to mention the Mormon church has changed their own words about ridiculous beliefs about black people having black skin because they were sinful and cursed. Joseph smith literally made up that black people were cursed to justify slavery.

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For what it’s worth, I’ll gladly pipe up for Mormons.

Not their particular religion, which I’m agnostic about. But for the character that it produces, the kind of humans that result: yeah. I am a big proponent of Mormons.

Really, really good and really, really grounded in humility, really, really fine people Mormons - in my experience. If there were any one sect of Christians I would like, really promote - based on life experience - it would definitely be Mormons.

Again: based on the quality of humans produced - in my experience - I’m not sure Mormons can be beat anywhere in the world.

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187

No, it just contradicts your personal interpretation of the Bible.

That’s the point the Latter Day Saints are getting at. That mankind is flawed. That the Bible was changed over time by man to suit various agendas and through human error in translating.

Latter Day Saints claim the additional doctorine clears up those mistakes.

They say he resides in a spiritual existence. He can take on any form he wants. He did so in the old testament too…as a burning bush I recall.

They believe God said he is the only true God. Any other God is simply man made, a false God. There are no other “real” God’s as God is the ultimate creator of everything.

Idk. How can God be a talking bush? He is God. He can do what he wants I would assume.

Latter Day Saints aren’t saying there are 3 Gods. They are saying there is one and only one true God. Christ is his Son in spirit and flesh and sits on the Godhead beside the Father in purpose. The Holy Ghost, they believe is the vessel with which God and Christ communicate with mankind. People say they were touched or moved by they holy spirit etc.

I’m not here to claim Mormonism is true. Im just clearing up some misunderstandings you have about their belief system.

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188

How about what Joseph smith says? I’ll take it from what he wrote in the Book of Mormon.

Moroni 8:18 For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is a unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.

So…later he says ummmm guys. God was once a man. And became god. WTF??

So Joseph smith contradicts himself, the Bible.

And the Mormon church later contradicts Joseph smith. For example Joseph smith claims black people were cursed from ham.

Later the Mormon church changed that.

So we are to believe also that either Joseph smith lied…god lied and told Joseph smith a lie. Or god is wrong and or Joseph Smith is now wrong as the prophet of god?

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No…he can not contradict his nature. He did not change his nature being a unconsumable fire. He does if he was a man and became god. If he was man, he would not be god. And a man can’t make himself god…or else he would be a god. And since god has a creator, that would be the real god by any logic. And that doesn’t even makes sense as god is and will always will be eternal. The alpha and the omega.

No, it’s not mine…I adhere to church teachings. As do pretty much all Christians. I didn’t read the Bible once and make things up. I’m tired of people thinking that’s how it works and that what I’m doing. I’ve read many theologians, studied church history, apologist and apostolic teachings. So everyone is wrong and the Bible is wrong. You keep bringing up translations, but I learned in Greek and some Hebrew when need be. As did pretty much any apologist worth a damn. You’re acting like the translators did not know Greek and Hebrew.

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Not sure who you’re talking to, but you’re obviously not going to be convinced. You’re basically just skimming the surface, and like most people, you don’t have a clear enough understanding of how religion works to successfully convince anyone of what you’re saying. Just let it be enough to say that Mormonism is a belief system that is very different from your own. Your time would be better spent reading a book on religion, or Mormonism, or (or fish for that matter) than posting rants. Or read a book about Buddhism and see how many parallels there are, just for fun.
And as I type this, you’re now basically just saying Mormonism is self-contradictory, as are all religions if you’re not interpreting them from within the community.

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Well glade they aren’t promoting slavery because they believe black people are cursed anymore. But to their credit they did say we should abuse slaves.

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Andrew,

You are now switching from a discussion about Christianity to the validity of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

I get the feeling you have a personal vendetta against the LDS faith.

They mean nobody harm. Quite nice people really who do a lot of good in the world.

Having said that, let’s get back to Andrew…I will play along for a bit.

It is talking about his purpose. His overall objective. He isn’t a finicky being, but rather one with a clear purpose.

Clarified. Not contradicted. Remember what LDS believe? I said it earlier. They believe the Bible to have errors, both intentional and unintentional. LDS prophets, through direct revelation, believe they are cleaning it up.

God did not write the Bible. Mankind did. It was written long after Christ died. How exactly did it get endorsed by God? Oh…yeah…through prophets (or humans claiming to be called by God). Hmmmm, sounds like what the LDS faith continues to do.

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I clearly don’t have any knowledge of religion? Yes the one who is bringing up all valid discrepancies doesn’t know. Have you said anything in-depth about anything?

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Frankly, as a people they were hounded from Illinois to Missouri in the mid-19th century, and from Missouri throughout the middle of the USA by the US Army until they reached Utah later in the 1800s (their history is actually much more complicated, and within the USA they are the only religion whose adherents were at war with the US Army - that I know of (not taking into account the animism or paganism of native Americans)).

I’m much less interested in their catechism than their results, which have been more than spectacular. The Catholic church may be Fortress Christianity but for my money Mormons are best at representing what Christ means (to me, anyway).

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So let me get it right…no translation needed as he wrote it in English. God is not a partial god. But he was man. And became god.

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Does it not say in your Bible that God created man in his image?

God’s current physicsl state of being is spiritual. He exists on a spiritual plane. He has the power to create anything or be anything. He us in all things since all things are his creation.

It is his purpose and plan that is unchanging. He will never ceases to be God and his children can’t become him. They can become like him. Godlike in purpose.

Which church? There are hundreds of different churches / denominations and they all interperate things differently.

I understand you have your core belief system. Great! So do many other humans. Who leads this church you speak of? What communication do they have with God? Can they confirm with him what you are saying?

Of course not. Religion can’t be proven. It’s all faith based. You have strong faith. Cool. Use it to do good and not tear down others. Christ did teach that we should cast the first stone if we are sinless, did he not?

The LDS are not doing anyone any harm.

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The Old Testament was written before Jesus. Mormons also said the Old Testament is incorrect. So he walk around all that time and didn’t point out what was wrote was wrong. And not to mention God came to people many times and never said anything?

Jesus is the logos. The word. “You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me” ([John 5:39)

So he’s like hey I’m here to testify to the truth but there’s some non truths in there. I don’t think so.

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Not on the nature of god. Only Mormons believe in god was a man. And later became god. While the Old Testament, New Testament, apostles, and every after all say is not true. But suddenly Joseph smith says so.

Are you trying to say…Mormons are right and other Christians are also right?

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None of it was collected and bound into one book or collection of scrolls in one location at one time. Jesus said to listen to his word when he was living and teaching. The apostles wrote everything down long after he died.

The modern day Bible has been through many translations. Things were omitted, cherry picked, or even added / changed to meet the agenda of churches, Kings, etc over thousands of years.

Christ never wrote anything down. God never wrote anything down. Imperfect humans did. It continues to change even in modern times. Simplistic versions change the wording causing even more confusion and disagreement.

That is why God spoke to prophets in the old testament times. When Christ was alive, there also were prophets. John the Baptist was one. After he died, prophets continued to be called upon to clarify the word of God because mankind kept fudging it up. Why stop having prophets all of a sudden?

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But prophets don’t usually…contradict each other. So all the prophets of the Bible said one thing. Unless you’re saying people messed it up and added things. And Joseph smith said another and is right?

Why isn’t Mohammad a Christian prophet then? I have to tell muslims the news, Mohammad was also right. He just added some stuff and also denied Jesus. But they are also Christians.