Who Lost Iraq?

James Dobbins has an article in Foreign Affairs assessing who’s to blame for Iraq, and goes about it without a lot of finger pointing.
Well worth reading.

[quote=“Dobbins”]
In the aftermath of national catastrophes, people have a natural tendency to look for an explanation based on a single point of failure. Such explanations are often unhelpful in devising subsequent policy. Simplistic lessons drawn from World War I persuaded the United States to embrace isolationism and Europe appeasement, both of which contributed to World War II. The lesson many Americans drew from not opposing Hitler sooner – “no more Munichs” – became a powerful rationale for the United States’ entanglement in Vietnam in the 1960s. The subsequent national rejection of counterinsurgency missions – “no more Vietnams” – greatly hampered U.S. military performance in Iraq. If the current debate over the United States’ failure in Iraq is to yield constructive results, it will have to go beyond bumper-sticker conclusions – no more preemption, no more democracy promotion, no more nation building.

Individuals have been the first target of criticism: President George W. Bush, of course, but also Vice President Dick Cheney; Donald Rumsfeld, the former secretary of defense; General Tommy Franks, the former commander of U.S. Central Command; Paul Wolfowitz, the former deputy secretary of defense; Douglas Feith, the former undersecretary of defense for policy; L. Paul Bremer, the former head of the Coalition Provisional Authority; and George Tenet, the former CIA director. All except two of these individuals have been out of office for some time: the Bush administration is already on its second defense secretary, third CIA director, third commanding general in Iraq, and fourth top diplomat there – and thus far, none of these changes has reversed a worsening situation. This suggests that the source of at least some of the United States’ difficulties in Iraq transcends particular personalities…[/quote]

Saddam lost Iraq.

Iraq lost Saddam.

Now you lot are trying to find another strongman to run the place as ‘democracy’ doesn’t work and you can’t, and neither can the Iraqi Government, keep control. Perhaps you should have just talked to Saddam in the first place and he would have been a nice little buffer between your own paranoia and Iran. But no, you just had to do it the American way.

You fucked up big time. You know it, the world knows it but but your blind adherence to your self perceived superiority blinds you to what is obvious; that the world’s greatest military under the leadership of your president can’t do shit.

Absolutely fucking useless.

BroonArmedInsurrection

Nice summary there, Broon, damned hard to argue with it.

Maybe the yanks should have practiced on a few more little islands in the Bahamas before trying out in the big league again. They did alright in Grenada, well, sort of alright considering there wasn’t any combat soldiers to resist them. But hey, if that’s what it takes to get their confidence back, who are we to fault that?

HG

[quote]
You fucked up big time. You know it, the world knows it but but your blind adherence to your self perceived superiority blinds you to what is obvious; that the world’s greatest military under the leadership of your president can’t do shit.[/quote]

Luckily, we will soon have ANOTHER president! Same world, but another president. And IF it is a Democratic variation, chances are he’ll bomb the living shit out of something sooner than later.

I will be SO happy to join you Broon is mocking the Dems fumbling around trying to get their dicks out of their trousers without any bloodgooshing zippage, because despite what people say about how badly Bush is fucking up, I haven’t the slightest fucking clue as to what the other team is planning.

Well since you’re all Americans, even if you have an unreasonable and illogical hatred for each other, the rest of us can safely presume it will be something evil with guns taht’s in store.

Interesting point about the fumbling dickbits in the trousers, as I have long believed it is because your mothers sanctify your gentital mutilation as babies that you need the obvious dick extension guns seem to lend your nasty little peoples.

HG

[quote=“jdsmith”]I will be SO happy to join you Broon is mocking the Dems fumbling around trying to get their dicks out of their trousers without any bloodgooshing zippage, because despite what people say about how badly Bush is fucking up, I haven’t the slightest fucking clue as to what the other team is planning.[/quote]Really, that’s what’ll do it for you? 'Cause kick at the elephant, or kick at the donkey, one way or another, it’s the kid down your street who’ll get it in the sack.

It amuses me to no end that posting a nonpartisan review of the this clusterbuck has spurred… sigh. Right, right… so how about that thread on media responsibility and the public interest? Shit; I ought post a review of ‘One Night in Paris’, or Britney’s latest drunkcapades.

Our problem (we Americans) is that we’ve never really sat back and clearly asked ourselves exactly what we’re trying to win in Iraq. Is it a war? Is it a struggle for hearts and minds . . . is it a giant confidence game?

I doubt if any American from President Bush on down to the lowliest OIL foot soldier could do better than to enunciate a series of platitudes or mindless jingoisms if asked what our real goal in Iraq is.

One reason is because The Project for a New American Century is one giant house of cards held together by nothing more than the intellectual equivalent of spit – logical fallacies – and pulling on anything in the form of asking too many intellectually honest questions is likely to bring the whole thing tumbling down around our ears.

That’s why the PNACites fight tooth and nail against admitting even the most obvious, trivial failure in connection with their cause because it would be like pulling on a thread.

The other reason though is because what we all know in our heart of hearts is that what we’re really trying to pull off in Iraq is a giant con game in which we’re trying to swindle the Iraqi people out of their self-respect, their most deeply held beliefs and maybe even eventually some of their oil loot – and like it.

That my friends has got to be one of the hardest “wars” imaginable to fight and win. Trying to swindle an entire country out of what they hold nearest and dearest – particularly when they never really trusted anything about us in the first place.

Of course, the coup de grace to this whole mind fucking adventure is that we’ve got the equivalent of Zippy the Pinhead and his gang running the con. What are the odds of that coming to anything other than a bad end? Pretty much 100% I’d say.

"Summary: The current debate over the United States’ failures in Iraq needs to go beyond bumper-sticker conclusions – no more preemption, no more democracy promotion, no more nation building – and acrimonious finger-pointing. Only by carefully considering where U.S. leaders, institutions, and policies have been at fault can valuable lessons be learned and future debacles avoided.

James Dobbins directs the International Security and Defense Policy Center at the RAND Corporation and served as Assistant Secretary of State under Presidents Bill Clinton and George W. Bush. He was the Clinton administration’s special envoy to Bosnia, Haiti, Kosovo, and Somalia and the Bush administration’s first envoy to Afghanistan."[/i]
Foreign Affairs.org

Well yes…there’s that. Dobbins is a rather well known professional academic who makes his business surveying and assessing the results of ‘interventions’ and ‘nation building’ post armed conflict. He came to flower during the Clinton* years Bosnia-Kosovo fighting and was appointed “Special Envoy” to that area and Afghanistan during the early G.W. Bush years. Knowledgeable area people were hard to find and, I suppose, his name was already on the list.
What he was saying approx. 2 years ago. Gives a bit of perspective and depth on his comments in the posted article.

[quote]"Described as a veteran diplomatic troubleshooter, Dobbins has had much firsthand experience in nation building, a notion that was highly controversial in the 1990s and in to the current decade, he said. In 2001, following the attack on the World Trade Center, Dobbins was designated as the Bush administration’s representative to the Afghan opposition. He helped organize and then represented the United States at the Bonn Conference where a new Afghan government was formed. And, on Dec. 16, 2001, he presided over the raising of the U.S. flag over the reopened U.S. Embassy.

"Of the U.S. operations in Kosovo during the Clinton administration he said, “…in may ways it was the best organized, the most robust, the best resourced,” said Dobbins. He emphasized that in the case of Kosovo that the need was recognized to apply civil assets and resources that the military does not, and was not going to, provide. But, of the post 9-11 intervention, “There clearly was a discontinuity in the American approach,” said Dobbins.

“If we had anticipated – as we should have – based on our experience of the previous 10 years, that when Saddam fell his government would disintegrate, his security forces would evaporate, that a vacuum of power would open overnight, that that vacuum would be filled instantly by a combination of criminal and politically extreme elements, that if those elements were not successfully challenged they would have time to consolidate, to gain confidence, to intimidate the population…” That is exactly what happened, said Dobbins.

Dobbins also pointed out in each one of the cases examined, that following U.S. military intervention, which may have involved relatively few troops, “it took tens of thousands more to actually stabilize the country.” “So why wouldn’t you think it was going to take more troops to stabilize Iraq than it was going to topple Saddam. It is what happened every time in the last six occasions. And yet there was an unwillingness to look at those as relevant examples.” But, he pointed out that the focus on Iraq and setbacks encountered there “give a false impression of the utility of this form of international action more generally.” Dobbins, who recently published the related title, The UN’s Role in Nation Building: From the Congo to Iraq, (Rand, 2005) said, “The majority of these interventions have been successful and yielded very beneficial results.”

Dobbins concluded by saying that while the administration hasn’t been quick to acknowledge its mistakes, “it has been pretty good about correcting them.” He added that nation building is now a core function of the U.S. military. And, while saying that these kinds of operations are going to continue, “ideally we are going to be doing them more multinationally, more selectively, but if we are going to do them, we might as well get better.”
UCLA.edu[/quote]
Another academic making the assumption that the role of the military should be “nation building” and then being quick to show the blatant problems this incurs upon a group whose mission is destroying an enemy.

While I do not disagree with everything Mr. Dobbins writes, I do think it is from a particular position and rather narrowly focused to support that position.
But isn’t just about everything?

[quote=“jdsmith”][quote]
You fucked up big time. You know it, the world knows it but but your blind adherence to your self perceived superiority blinds you to what is obvious; that the world’s greatest military under the leadership of your president can’t do shit.[/quote]

Luckily, we will soon have ANOTHER president! Same world, but another president. And IF it is a Democratic variation, chances are he’ll bomb the living shit out of something sooner than later.

I will be SO happy to join you Broon is mocking the Dems fumbling around trying to get their dicks out of their trousers without any bloodgooshing zippage, because despite what people say about how badly Bush is fucking up, I haven’t the slightest fucking clue as to what the other team is planning.[/quote]

The blind adherence to your self perceived superiority I referred to is an American trait, not a politically partisan one. I have the utmost confidence that as long as you all believe in gung-ho America always being right, then you’ll continue to fuck things like Iraq up. At present though the Bush cabal have taken fucking things up American-style to a new level or nadir, depending which side of the white picket fence you are on. Only when some of your lot with brains (I believe that there may be a few out there) step out of your American clothes and try to look from the outside in, then you might begin to understand why we mock you so. And enjoy it so much.

So, keeping on fucking things up America. Watching you lot in action is a hoot.

Spook: that was an excellent post, by the way. Doubtless, those whose hard-ons outweigh the daily USArmy body bags in importance will disagree as nothing can stand in the way of America with a boner for doing things any fucking way they want.

Idiots.

BroonAsserts

The aspect of nation building the military is uniquely placed to undertake is to establish the peace by either wiping out the bad guys, or at the very least, creating a secure environment in which a nation can be built. I don’t see that happening.

HG

Go back to organizing the Newcastle Naval Squadron.

CommodedoorBroon

[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]The aspect of nation building the military is uniquely placed to undertake is to establish the peace by either wiping out the bad guys, or at the very least, creating a secure environment in which a nation can be built. I don’t see that happening.

HG[/quote]

You can’t see it happening??? But they had elections. They are a democracy. They are free to complain. We have been told, by George W. Bush no less, that there is progress. Who are we to doubt the words of such a mind as his?

BroonAdherent

[quote=“BroonAle”][quote]

The blind adherence to your self perceived superiority I referred to is an American trait, not a politically partisan one.[/quote]
Yeah, but the other side is even MORE arrogant than the Right!

As I watch my country from the sidelines, I too cannot help but laugh at times. But when it comes to doing something, anything in the world of politics and diplomacy, I can’t wait around forever, and at least the US is providing some kind of focus.

I mean isn’t Russia falling apart these days? But I don’t see Jon Stewart sending a “reporter” to Moscow.

Maybe doing something right is not even important anymore…just doing something is. Keeps the ball rolling and all.

And I would like to thank the World, Europe in particular for funding the housing boom! Don’t you think they KNEW that doing so was going to bite them in the ass down the line? heehee

Asshurts?

sorry

Such rich pickings, but I’ll puill two obvious furphys out for you.

[quote=“jdsmith”]
I mean isn’t Russia falling apart these days? [/quote]

No, they’re getting their shit together, in a fascist kind of way.

And here I was thinking you had a smidgeon of understanding about this sub-prime business.

Your homework for today is to go and look at the name Lewis Ranieri and see what he created. Man, it is a wholy US issue that has put the stoppers on shares at this point.

Try reading this first:

http://www.moneyweb.co.za/mw/view/mw/en/page1408?oid=157569&sn=Detail

HG

UK might be a good one to start with. The last man left that country a looooong time ago, and they way they’ve been surrendering lately…the French are going to have to start making jokes about them :smiley:

:laughing:

To duel with broon I write blindly. :smiley: You never know what he knows.

just chumming.

Aiyo! Caught me! :laughing:

HG

Shouldn’t you be posting in the botting Senator in bogs thread, in that case?

BroonArrivalsArea