Who Lost Iraq?

Politics International Politics
41

Perhaps I should turn this around on you and “demand” that you admit that you are failing miserably in your efforts at convincing people that the efforts in Iraq are failing.[/quote]

It’s tough to decide whether the surge is “working” or not when I don’t even have a clear idea what a successful surge is supposed to look like. I doubt you do either.

Does it mean delivering a fatal blow to the insurgency so it withers away?

Does it mean providing enough breathing space for the Iraqi government so it’s able to gain control of the chaos in the country for the first time?

Failure is easy enough to define. It would simply mean that the “surge” tactic didn’t really permanently improve anything.

Got any idea what you’re talking about?[/quote]spook -
You mean after all the blithering back and forth you’ve been doing you’re going to finally admit you have no idea of what you’re supposed to be looking for?

No wonder you can’t debate in a straight line. You are wandering around in circles of your own making.
Have fun…and remember…if you walk the same trail long enough you create a rut.[/quote]

So is that question beneath you – defining exactly what you mean by a successful surge?

42

Cowboy’s gone AWOL, for some reason, on explaining exactly how we’re supposed to know that the surge strategy in Iraq has been successful. Is it really that hard a question to answer?

I can’t explain because I’m a skeptic who sees it as little more than a cheap trick with no real logic behind it.

Overcoming my skepticism isn’t made any easier though when supporters of the surge can’t or won’t explain how we’re supposed to know it’s actually worked either.

43

[quote=“spook”]Cowboy’s gone AWOL, for some reason, on explaining exactly how we’re supposed to know that the surge strategy in Iraq has been successful. Is it really that hard a question to answer?
[/quote]

If insurgent attacks die down then it is working for obvious reasons. If insurgent attacks increase it is working as they are just trying to influence politics in the US in the short term.

44

. . . and you are a traitor for even suggesting things might be going wrong, which leaves me flummoxed by the shift in the language that means I no longer have a proper word for traitor. What would you call a real traitor these days?

HG

45

[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]. . . and you are a traitor for even suggesting things might be going wrong, which leaves me flummoxed by the shift in the language that means I no longer have a proper word for traitor. What would you call a real traitor these days?

HG[/quote]

Someone who puts partisan interests, such as protecting a Republican president, and only a Republican president, above national security. So…a Freddie?

46

I blame Fred - since he’s the one who’s always telling us about he people like him (At the Taiwan Buena Vista Social Club) are the ones who make policy.

47

Hmm, pushing partisan politics, or fun in the case of the Bueno Vista Social Club, above the national interest? I see your point.

Sorry, Spook, I realise you have a more pressing question, so I’ll fade out and hope someone answers it.

HG

48

[quote=“Huang Guang Chen”]Sorry, Spook, I realise you have a more pressing question, so I’ll fade out and hope someone answers it.

HG[/quote]

Actually I did answer it. This is what the Bush admin has come out publically saying: the surge can be argued to be working under both scenarios.

49

Now that’s spin.

I guess that in 20 years time, the myths about Iraq will be a repeat of the one about Vietnam, IE that the war was lost due to the democrats and other internal enemies.

I blame Bush and his cohorts, may they burn in hell.

50

What a depressing yet totally plausible thought.

Perhaps more crucially it will give the American military another excuse out to the next twenty years not to bother transforming itself in response to another clear military defeat.

HG

51

[quote=“spook”]Cowboy’s gone AWOL, for some reason, on explaining exactly how we’re supposed to know that the surge strategy in Iraq has been successful. Is it really that hard a question to answer?
I can’t explain because I’m a skeptic who sees it as little more than a cheap trick with no real logic behind it.
Overcoming my skepticism isn’t made any easier though when supporters of the surge can’t or won’t explain how we’re supposed to know it’s actually worked either.[/quote]Spook -
Dentist appointment at 1000, will post later.
But really spook, you’re just playing the jack-off game as you always do. Ask rhetorical questions, whine when you don’t get an answer and when someone does give you and answer whine that that wasn’t the question you were asking…blah blah blah.
And of course the usual junta will join you with their supportive voices.

Spook, I have made numerous posts, from people who are in theater, with their comments on the results, so far, of the “surge.”
www.patdollard.com …Michael Yon…along with others.

If you don’t care to read them and comment on their information, if you are content to just post repetitive pleas for ‘enlightenment’ and continue as you always do…then I look forward to the dentist office rather than continuing playing your game.
I’ve been posting the info from the people who are actually there, its your choice to ignore it.

52

“Junta”, “traitors.”

I’m reminded of a dear old aunt who picked me up on my then habit of saying “fantastic” with the query, “one wonders what term you would use if you should ever happen upon something that really was fantastic.” She had a point.

HG

53

Fantastic

54

Now that the word ‘traitor’ has been rendered nearly useless by serial misapplication maybe a good replacement word would be ‘patriot.’ It seems that whenever you hear the word “patriot” slapped on something these days you can just about be sure that a little more liberty and justice are going to be bartered for a few more bricks in the wall.

I guess the answer to my question ‘how exactly will we know if the surge has been a success or not?’ is ‘you’ll know when we say it’s a success.’

55

It’s a success.

56

Oh I agree.

[quote]One day, Harry came upon a big, long ladder that stretched into the clouds. He’d walked this way every day and this ladder was never there before.

Curious and brave, he began to climb. Eventually, he climbed into the layer of clouds, and saw this rather large, homely woman lying there on a cloud.

She spoke: “Take me now or climb the ladder to success!” Harry figured success had to be better than this, so he continued climbing. He came upon another level of clouds, and found a thinner, cuter woman than before.

She also spoke: “Take me now or climb the ladder to success!” Harry saw that his luck was changing and so continued his climb. On another level of clouds, he found a rather attractive woman with not so bad of a figure.

She stated, “Take me now or climb the ladder to success!” Harry really liked his advantage now! He climbed quickly and deftly, and sure enough, on the next level, he found a gorgeous, lithe, well-endowed woman lying seductively on the cloud.

“Take me now or climb the ladder to success,” she huskily whispered. Harry couldn’t believe his eyes, but his greed caught the best of him. He climbed to the next level, expecting Aphrodite or similar.
Suddenly, the ladder ends, and a latch closes behind him. He looks over to see a 400-pound, 6’8" hairy biker looking guy with tattoos. The biker gets up and walks menacingly toward Harry.
Apprehensively, Harry whispers, “Who are you?”
The biker answers, “I’m Cess.”[/quote]

HG

57

This must be the intellectual bankruptcy [color=brown]Sir Mike was talking about.[/color]

58

What do you want …he supports Rummy…who through his management of Sandbox II has caused more damage to the US military than any number of Democrat regimes.

59

[color=blue]Likewise . . . [/color]

[quote]Weighing the ‘Surge’

By Sudarsan Raghavan
Washington Post Foreign Service
Tuesday, September 4, 2007; Page A01

BAGHDAD – Nearly every week, American generals and politicians visit Combat Outpost Gator, nestled behind a towering blast wall in the Dora market. They arrive in convoys of armored Humvees, sometimes accompanied by helicopter gunships, to see what U.S. commanders display as proof of the effectiveness of a seven-month-long security offensive, fueled by 30,000 U.S. reinforcements. Gen. David H. Petraeus, the top U.S. military leader in Iraq, frequently cites the market as a sign of progress.

“This is General Petraeus’s baby,” said Staff Sgt. Josh Campbell, 24, of Winfield, Kan., as he set out on a patrol near the market on a hot evening in mid-August.

Even U.S. soldiers assigned to protect Petraeus’s showcase remain skeptical. “Personally, I think it’s a false representation,” Campbell said, referring to the portrayal of the Dora market as an emblem of the surge’s success. "But what can I say? I’m just doing my job and don’t ask questions.[/quote]

Don’t ask questions. I hear that. It won’t do you any good anyway because there aren’t any answers.

60

Spook has posted numerous articles written by American soldiers serving in Iraq. So have you. But he only posts the negative ones, and you only post the positive ones. I guess that’s how this works.