You completely missed my point, I never said women can’t be coal miners or shouldn’t. I just brought up it’s interesting that almost always people point towards why aren’t there more women CEOs and use it as the platform to prove inequality. I’ve never once heard anyone lead with why aren’t there more coal miners and people fight for more women in jobs like that. That is my point, be honest, why did you pick the cream of the crop jobs for equality and not bother to look at say coal miners? I think if you truly answered honestly which I don’t believe you have been with your answers and misinformation in my rebuttals but i’ll get to that later.
Socialist have guns, they would probably argue they need it to fight their oppressors.
Ok so you admit at a certain point it’s a human, and at a certain point the it’s my body rhetoric falls flat yes? I’m not going to debate to much on this, it’s a whole other issues of ethics but I should have called you out on how you used this to deflect from my original question. Below:
I asked if there are any rights men have women don’t, lets just stick to the US to simplify. You didn’t answer my question and threw me a curve ball using rights men clearly also don’t have in the same way due to biology because you know the answer.
Lets go back to this quote, I called you out on this because it’s clearly sexist. And you tried to be dishonest and sly on it when I called you out. You never mentioned any other reason from this paragraph unless i’m wrong that disqualifies these people other than the fact they are men as you mentioned. You never said anything about their qualifications, who they are, what that believe in, what policies they are trying to make. All you said was this, so yeah I think you’re being extremely dishonest with your original intent when you backtracked on this.
Other parts where I think you are being dishonest, or at least misinformed
you mentioned the statistic women make 22% less. I explained to you that it’s not a good statistic to represent if indeed there is a significant wage gap (you’d expect +or- a couple percent because it’s just unrealistic unless you have a state controlled economy to have a perfect even wage) because of how that percentage is arrived. It doesn’t take into account or separate into fields, experience, education level, hours worked past 35 (full time) and other things. Which makes it a really bad statistical number to use, and you are in fact doing women a disservice using this number. Do you still believe that women make 22% less?
Also, I don’t see a single solution to forcing gender roles. The only solution I see is very totalitarian and socialistic by basically having someone around the kids all day making sure they don’t play with too much toy trucks or barbies. You failed to recognized what @IbisWtf mentioned. [quote=“IbisWtf, post:102, topic:166200”]
The point is boys shy away from nursing due to traditional gender roles.
Men and things, women and people: a meta-analysis of sex differences in interests.
R Su, J Rounds and PI Armstrong,
Psychological bulletin, Nov 2009
The magnitude and variability of sex differences in vocational interests were examined in the present meta-analysis for Holland’s (1959, 1997) categories (Realistic, Investigative, Artistic, Social, Enterprising, and Conventional), Prediger’s (1982) Things-People and Data-Ideas dimensions, and the STEM (science, technology, engineering, and mathematics) interest areas. Technical manuals for 47 interest inventories were used, yielding 503,188 respondents. Results showed that men prefer working with things and women prefer working with people, producing a large effect size (d = 0.93) on the Things-People dimension. Men showed stronger Realistic (d = 0.84) and Investigative (d = 0.26) interests, and women showed stronger Artistic (d = -0.35), Social (d = -0.68), and Conventional (d = -0.33) interests. Sex differences favoring men were also found for more specific measures of engineering (d = 1.11), science (d = 0.36), and mathematics (d = 0.34) interests. Average effect sizes varied across interest inventories, ranging from 0.08 to 0.79. The quality of interest inventories, based on professional reputation, was not differentially related to the magnitude of sex differences. Moderators of the effect sizes included interest inventory item development strategy, scoring method, theoretical framework, and sample variables of age and cohort. Application of some item development strategies can substantially reduce sex differences. The present study suggests that interests may play a critical role in gendered occupational choices and gender disparity in the STEM fields.
It would seem that studies actually suggest that gender plays some role without any enforced gender roles being forced on them. And lets be honest here, gender roles do exist and some of it does hamper people I admit. But legally we have done everything unless you can think of more ways that I would happy to listen to make sure it’s opportunities are equally available. And that gender roles don’t prevent people from doing what they want it they wanted. Like people didn’t prevent you from being a director, because i’m sure it’s not something everyone thought would work out. How could we change that, put each child in a room for all his life with only supportive people? I’'ll even admit things like pink is a feminine color annoys me. But i’ve always liked pink since I was young, I still wear it, have a pink phone. I don’t care what anyone thinks. I have pink muay thai boxing shorts and if you are focused on why i’m wearing pink as a guy, your next thought is where the fuck am I laying on the ground.
Sure, and I would bring that issue to light. But why is this not brought into the same conversation. In the US there are over 2000 domestic violence centers for women, and only 1 for men…and many reputable studies show that victims of domestic violence is almost close to 50/50 split, women’s are always higher but it’s not that far off. You see how all the violence victims in the section are about women and the fear of God is put into you as a women that are always at risk as victims of violence. Yet every statistic show men are more likely victims of violence, die from homicide at a alarming rate, high numbers of victims of rape (especially in prison) and young boys and girls are equally likely abused physically and sexually at home. Yet when you think of victims of violence, domestic abuse, rape, child physical and sexual abuse, be honest. Is the first image of the victim a woman or a man?
Am I saying get rid of womens shelter? No i’m saying stop painting men as the oppressors when we suffer too and stop demonizing men. It does the exact opposite what I believe you want, equality. We don’t get helped or seek help because no one shows compassion towards men anymore. And i think why suicide rates are so high for men. And it’s not a contest, it’s just that why can’t we stop making men the bad guys when a majority of us also struggle as well?
Journalism is not always about events that are easily chronicled in a straightforward, purely objective way.
Journalism does sometimes involve social and cultural issues with economic implications, which is what we have here.
Here’s an idea: get to know some journalists who cover controversial issues and ask them about how they work.
I can’t help or do anything if you just bad things are happening. What bad things. Give me something Stand with.
Did you read it all the way through? The part about angel investors treating female entrepreneurs like prostitutes, the part about damned if you do, damned if you don’t (women are no fun because they refuse to go to sex clubs, but if they do go then you should assume they’re prostitutes), the part questioning the ethical implications of mixing business and pleasure… none of that is worth anything because some radical feminist told you the article proves men are scum? It doesn’t prove anything, but there’s not a single word in it that I find prima facie unbelievable.
If that doesn’t make sense to you, I’ll just agree to disagree.
Correct. So if you’re going to say let’s not talk about this because we already fixed the problem of inequality and any discussion of it that has any negative implication about men is just utopian, you need to consider the utopian aspect of the we already fixed it part, because the reality of that “fix” is dystopian for many people.
The thing about the whole don’t let the government do anything or else we’ll enter a socialist death spiral theory is that history tells a different story. In some ways there was more “freedom” and “equality” in the Victorian era, but it’s not very hard from where we’re standing to figure out what was wrong with that (unless you’re Jotham or Finley). Looking for solutions does not necessarily mean hyper-regulating, but it does mean not assuming that everything will fix itself.
I’ve told this true story from Taiwan before, but suppose you work for a company for 20+ years, and suddenly it lays you off and washes its hands of severance and pension obligations on the grounds that it isn’t the same company it used to be. This is news to you because it still uses the same name on all its signs, brochures and ads, everyone still refers to it with the same name, it’s still in the same place, and the same family is still running it. Technically, it’s not the same company – they filed the paperwork with the government and put a different family member in charge – and maybe (but not necessarily) you even signed an acknowledgement of it at some point, which they assured you was necessary but would change nothing for you.
One theory says the company is right: it followed the oh-so-egalitarian law and did all the paperwork (except possibly the part where it was supposed to tell you your former employer was officially dissolved), so in the interest of contractual freedom, it owes you nothing.
Yet the Supreme Court took the “activist” position (as Americans would say) that the new company does bear responsibility because the reality down on the ground is that the owners are selfish a******s exploiting a loophole, and the employees need and deserve pensions that they won’t otherwise get. It’s not Khmer Rouge genocidal utopianism, but it’s not Victorian free slum market utopianism either.
Congratulations, and I sincerely thank you for your integrity.
Now try being a single mother with no connections or family support and see if you would do anything differently.
Yes, I agree with all of this. But can you honestly tell me that the article is a good journalism?
Sure, i’d be happy to. I will be frank, journalism isn’t a field i’m well versed on so I can admit that I may not have all the facts.
I read it, it assumes men as the bad guys when i’ve been to enough parties to know that many women happily enjoy casual sex and i’m sure some women and men wouldn’t mind being at the party using sex as currency to say. I’m not denying these parties exist. I’m not denying it brings in situations like you said. I have an issue with it being biased without looking at perhaps some women don’t see themselves as prostitutes there and also some men probably are in the same situation with damned if you don’t. Personally, i don’t go to parties, especially those after parties anymore if you catch my drift. Lots of drugs and sex, and many of my former connections…well they don’t exactly let me in anymore because i’m not doing that.
No i’m saying lets use correct information and not just bash men as a group for all the problems women face.
I’m sure single fathers would have just as of hard time with different difficulties varied on each individuals situation.
Real men get over it, even if they feel they are being bashed “for no reason.” No reason to start a ruckus online about it. Whining about it online proves nothing, your actions (and reactions) prove everything!
To the contrary, as someone from the southern USA and a white male myself, I’m sick of seeing people like politbureau lament about how the white male is supposedly being suppressed in America. I have never been denied employment or any other opportunity because I was not a female or a minority, nor have I heard of such a thing happening to anyone I know. WASPs seriously need a reality check.
Well, that’s where we’re somehow not on the same page.
What I find useful about this kind of writing is not that it hands us a supposed solution (“legislation now!” or “funding now!”) but that it shows us a problem we might not otherwise think about or even know about, because the average person has no direct experience with Silicon Valley – even though it’s one of the most important and influential places on earth these days – much less wild sex parties in Silicon Valley.
It may also serve as a cautionary tale for young men who aspire to silicon greatness: if you lock yourself up in your bedroom to study hard and create the Next Big Thing like a mad scientist locking himself up in his laboratory you may be setting yourself up for a lifestyle of questionable fulfillment (and “defying human nature”, if that’s the standard to which we hold female coal miners etc.).
Going back to Senate Committees and CEOs:
Eventually, all those crusty old men and women (but mostly men, let’s face it) in positions of political and economic power will die out and be replaced by a new generation. In the tech industry, obviously, many of them aren’t even old yet, so it’s a bit of a special case.
But whatever industry or government we’re talking about (democratic or not), it is always to be hoped that whoever comes next will do a better job, and having greater awareness and understanding of what’s really going on in the world is something that can contribute to that.
That’s my two units of Comrade Finsky’s utopian offline currency.
After thinking more on social pressures are preventing women from achieving in the work place, my God is that an insult towards women. Really? Social pressure is getting to the best of women, gender roles and some quack in 2018 saying hey you should stay in the kitchen and not in a science lab is preventing women from becoming say a scientist? If that’s the case I doubt that particular person is very dedicated to becoming a scientist or whatever profession they choose. Are you saying women need to be in some safe space away from men to succeed? It’s insulting to millions of women who are excelling in what they do. Life and the work place is naturally competitive, and I think for someone to become a director like @Rockefeller should know this. I’m sure you had to fight tooth and nail for that job against a shit load of social pressure and things thrown at you. There is without a doubt in some countries today and most places decades ago what you guys and girls are saying are absolutely true. But In most of the free modern world, we’ve given women every legal freedoms men have to do what they want. If gender roles and societal pressures are keeping you from what you want to do, i doubt very much you’re cut out for that job in the first place. And I’ve yet heard one solution to end this oppression of women today due to gender roles and societal pressures of a patriarchy.
Real men and women used to stand up and fight for rights like allowing women to vote and laws against discrimination. Now it’s just complete rubish and men and women trying to sound englightened with complete ignorance and disregard to truth. Noticed I’ve asked repeatedly for incidences of inequality to stand against and actually gave real tangible solutions like going out and voting for more representation in the government. That’s how a democratic republic works, we don’t force people into our own utopia and it may suck in many ways and be slow to progress. But it’s far better than any other solution I’ve heard so far or lack of actual solutions in fact. Not one person gave me a answer to ending so called gender roles and traditions like taking on the mans name. I told you the damn solution and you still won’t listen. It’s called making your own decisions freely. You and your partner don’t want to continue the tradition of taking on a mans name. Don’t. If they person disagree maybe don’t be with them. If your dream is to be a scientist and someone says you shouldn’t for whatever reason, have the reslove to put in the work and prove them wrong. Stop blaming others for your own damn failures. Take some damn responsibility like adults and stop continually having this victim mentally that won’t get you anywhere.
What most of what some of you are preaching is probably contributing to what you’re trying to prevent. Telling women they’re going to make 22% less than men, telling them dinosaurs judges in Taiwan will oppressed them (are you serious on this one @Icon. I usually respect what you have to say but I was kind to let it go but it’s just such a surprise to me that seeing some of your other inputs on here this is what you posted) I’m sure there are terrible judges and actually I posted in another thread about them. There’s a review and there’s ways to remove them so if I or anyone see one of them continuesly make bad rulings. Let’s pressure the powers that be and get them out. But saying there are dinosaurs judges oppressing you therefore there nothing we can do…might as well blame the boogy man. I can’t believe this is the answer I got from you.
You keep telling women how they will be victims. Guess what, I’m guessing some of them will become self fulfilling prophecies. If I walk in to a negotiation thinking this job will pay people over 6 feet tall 22% less for whatever reason that may be since the world is oppressive to tall people. Guess what is likely to happen, I’m probably willing to settle for 22% less because i don’t think I can get more.
Some of the strawman arguments here are also laughable. Bad statistics, failure to understand simple economics. It’s so bad even people who are usually at the opposite end of the political spectrum like me and @Dr_Milker and @IbisWtf who usually go at each other in other threads about ideas are agreeing. It’s so bad trump haters and supporters are getting together. That’s how bad some of the arguements are here. Think about that.
I have no objection here. Completely agree. There is no good reason to demonize men or women, and it’s not only gender, any other groups.
Wage gaps. I disagree. The reasons of the gaps are job types, working hours, education levels, etc, that is true. The part I, and maybe others, think discrimination by gender (I include gender roles here) is the cause of those reasons. I don’t think that is all due to gender discrimination, but part of it. The same for the racial discrimination.
At individual level, that is true, and the only and perfect solution. But when only one gender is always said, you shouldn’t be, as is in my country, I think it is not fair. How to end it? I don’t think of other than education and action of each person.
I understood you think it is a problem of individuals. So, here we disagree.
Domestic violence. We may be talking on different things. You brought up the number in US. it’s about 50/50. I agree this should not be approached as a problem from men to women. But, is there any regional society that people there think one gender can beat the other gender when they are unpleasant, in US or in Taiwan? I am talking on the regional societies where people think so, even though the laws prohibit that kind of behaviors. There I think we (here, we means people of my country) should change the custom or tradition in the societies.
Now I realize why I was caught by your post. I’ve read as many damn posts that claim stupid women stole men’s jobs so I cannot get a good job, or due to the discrimination to men I cannot find a job, women use sex to get promoted so I cannot get promoted, etc. as the opposite posts, women are discriminated so I cannot get promoted, etc. For most ones, I feel it is just due to the lack of poster’s ability. There are many articles that say women are inferior to men, women should be at home to babysit, women should follow men, etc too. That kind of posts from men are more uncomfortable than those from women as I’m a woman, and I feel stop demonizing women to those posters, but not to entire of men. I felt your post saying stop demonizing men not only to the posters but to entire of women.
ah the wage gap… so many studies out there.
How about this 5-minute video that seems to be at the top hit of google returns on the subject.
American Association of University Women (key word, women) calculated the wage gap to be 6.6 cents after factoring in choices that men and women make. The key word being “choice” in individual careers.
Five worst-paying majors: Counseling/pyschology (74% female); Early Childhood Education (97% female); Theology and Religious Vocations (66% male); Human Services and Community Organization (81% female); Social Work (88% female).
In nursing profession, males earn 18% more than females, because they look to become specialists (higher pay), they work longer hours, and are willing to relocate to better paying areas.
Only a 5:29 minute, but may dispel some myths that media presents.
Hope this doesn’t make you sicker but there are numerous court cases concerning the exclusionary effects of “Affirmative Action’s” double standards on poor Southern white males. Reality check in three, two, one . . .
Pollard v. Oklahoma State Regents for Higher Education
In 1998, Scott Pollard, a white student at the University of Tulsa, applied to Oklahoma’s Academic Scholars Program. The Academic Scholars Program, which provides scholarships for high achieving students, allegedly held varying test-score requirements depending on an applicant’s race and gender. In 1999, soon after Pollard’s case was filed, the Oklahoma State Legislature amended the Oklahoma Academic Scholars Program, eliminating the subcategories for race and gender.
Why do you think people don’t use coal miners? Are you serious or just trying to argue for argument’s sake? That’s like a WASP in the 50s saying “I’ve never once heard anyone lead with why aren’t there more elevator operators and people fight for more african-americans in jobs like that.”
. Weird how you’re so obsessed with this. Check @finley and I’s posts on -ists and isms.
Yeah and explaining this to you has become exhausting. But again, show me all 50 states where safe and reasonable termination to unwanted pregnancy is readily accessible to women. Are you seriously saying, “men don’t have to deal with it biologically, so who cares”? You yourself mentioned how it can in other ways affect men, albeit to a lesser degree.
Do your research if you really want to know who they are and their qualifications - Google is your friend. Irregardless, their results speak for themselves. If your dad’s company has absurdly high turnovers and suffers increasing losses quarter after quarter, then someone should be replaced to really cure the problem, and it ain’t the labor.
Nope. You are confused.
Worse in some cases. Now, you may say “oh, that’s just your industry, mine or industry x is different.” Alright, provide evidence in your trade to suggest otherwise.
Sure. I’ve brought up this exact sentiment multiple times here. But it’s not the same when you have adults and every single person you know since the day you were born tell you that because you are x, you should pursue y. Or that we will like you/you will seem less intimidating/more desirable if you do x because you are y. This is from day one of their existence. Story books, toys, billboards, songs, wall paper. Brainwashed. Imprinted. That’s all they’ve ever known. So it is that much more obstacle for them to not only really recognize what they want to do, but have the gonads to chase after it.
Two wrongs don’t make a right. “North Korean civilians are suffering too!” isn’t an answer to the fact that Syrians are suffering. It’s been hard for me. It’s been hard for you. It’s likely just as hard and if not more so than the women who have marched.