[quote=“Satellite TV”]
How are you treated as a foreigner outside of your own family and friends?[/quote]
It’s probably already come up but a few examples would be:
-Random individuals saying “Sorry” in heavily-accented English in my office building (when perhaps “Excuse me” or “不好意思” would be more appropriate)
-Staff at a restaurant hurriedly switching out the Chinese menu for an English one despite the fact that I’m clearly reading it or even addressing the staff in Chinese
-Staff at a restaurant giving the “Oh shit it’s a foreigner” look, staring slack-jawed as you speak to them in Mandarin, and rushing to get someone to save them from the foreigner because they don’t speak English
And most irritating of all:
-Talking to someone in Chinese, and him (or her) answering in Chinese while actually addressing the answer to my girlfriend as though she were the one who’d asked the question, because obviously, I couldn’t possibly fucking understand the answer to the question I’d just asked. Same type of person will address questions about me to the Chinese-looking person standing next to me as though I weren’t even there, even if I’ve already spoken in Mandarin.
[quote=“spaint”][quote=“Satellite TV”]
How are you treated as a foreigner outside of your own family and friends?[/quote]
It’s probably already come up but a few examples would be:
-Random individuals saying “Sorry” in heavily-accented English in my office building (when perhaps “Excuse me” or “不好意思” would be more appropriate)
-Staff at a restaurant hurriedly switching out the Chinese menu for an English one despite the fact that I’m clearly reading it or even addressing the staff in Chinese
-Staff at a restaurant giving the “Oh shit it’s a foreigner” look, staring slack-jawed as you speak to them in Mandarin, and rushing to get someone to save them from the foreigner because they don’t speak English
And most irritating of all:
-Talking to someone in Chinese, and him (or her) answering in Chinese while actually addressing the answer to my girlfriend as though she were the one who’d asked the question, because obviously, I couldn’t possibly fucking understand the answer to the question I’d just asked. Same type of person will address questions about me to the Chinese-looking person standing next to me as though I weren’t even there, even if I’ve already spoken in Mandarin.[/quote]
The HORROR!
Honest, do you look kind of vacant or something? No offence meant by that, but its just something I find so weird because it simply doesn’t happen to me, or at least, it happens so seldom that I can’t really recall it happening. And I live in Taipei, where LOADS of locals speak English.
[quote=“spaint”][quote=“Satellite TV”]
How are you treated as a foreigner outside of your own family and friends?[/quote]
It’s probably already come up but a few examples would be:
-Random individuals saying “Sorry” in heavily-accented English in my office building (when perhaps “Excuse me” or “不好意思” would be more appropriate)
-Staff at a restaurant hurriedly switching out the Chinese menu for an English one despite the fact that I’m clearly reading it or even addressing the staff in Chinese
-Staff at a restaurant giving the “Oh shit it’s a foreigner” look, staring slack-jawed as you speak to them in Mandarin, and rushing to get someone to save them from the foreigner because they don’t speak English
And most irritating of all:
-Talking to someone in Chinese, and him (or her) answering in Chinese while actually addressing the answer to my girlfriend as though she were the one who’d asked the question, because obviously, I couldn’t possibly fucking understand the answer to the question I’d just asked. Same type of person will address questions about me to the Chinese-looking person standing next to me as though I weren’t even there, even if I’ve already spoken in Mandarin.[/quote]
They often say sorry to other locals as well. It’s much quicker than saying 不好意思 Which accent would you prefer they use to say sorry then?
I’ve not had staff take the Chinese menu away from me when I have been speaking to them in Chinese. I sometimes go to a place 茶水灘 HONG KONG They never give me a menu in English. Many local eateries know a lot of foreigners can speak and read Chinese. It was a lot different over a couple of decades ago when I first came here when very few expats spoke any Chinese.
Some people just get very nervous and are shy, they get all brain dead when they see expats and they are so focused on the fact they can’t speak English they turn into jelly. I have seen the same thing happen when a Taiwanese speaking person orders from a local who can’t speak Taiwanese very well. Same thing happens. These jelly heads aren’t treating you any different at all. They treat other locals the same way.
Sometimes you see people from the south in Taipei, the Hubby speaking his jailhouse Taiwanese and the missus speaking in Mandarin to the staff up in Taipei who cannot speak Taiwanese. I find it rather amusing when that happens.
-Random individuals saying “Sorry” in heavily-accented English in my office building (when perhaps “Excuse me” or “不好意思” would be more appropriate)[/quote]
More appropriate in whose mind? Yours? Why don’t you consider the perspective of the speaker? Maybe he’s too 不好意思 to say 不好意思 to someone he thinks may not understand. Maybe he thinks speaking to you in English shows you more respect.
Is that a slight? Sounds like a courtesy to me.
Are you sure you know exactly what they are thinking? And, again, is getting the English-speaking staff meant as an insult?
I’ll grant that these situations are mildly irritating; and I’ve experienced them. But, again, consider intent. And is this type of behaviour really any more than a mild irritant? Consider what immigrant groups have had to endure in other countries.
[quote=“spaint”][quote=“Satellite TV”]
How are you treated as a foreigner outside of your own family and friends?[/quote]
It’s probably already come up but a few examples would be:
-Random individuals saying “Sorry” in heavily-accented English in my office building (when perhaps “Excuse me” or “不好意思” would be more appropriate)
-Staff at a restaurant hurriedly switching out the Chinese menu for an English one despite the fact that I’m clearly reading it or even addressing the staff in Chinese
-Staff at a restaurant giving the “Oh shit it’s a foreigner” look, staring slack-jawed as you speak to them in Mandarin, and rushing to get someone to save them from the foreigner because they don’t speak English
And most irritating of all:
-Talking to someone in Chinese, and him (or her) answering in Chinese while actually addressing the answer to my girlfriend as though she were the one who’d asked the question, because obviously, I couldn’t possibly fucking understand the answer to the question I’d just asked. Same type of person will address questions about me to the Chinese-looking person standing next to me as though I weren’t even there, even if I’ve already spoken in Mandarin.[/quote]
they’re all non-issues related to cultural differences. I’d be more irritated (for example) at being treated as a house “goy” on saturdays.
There’s a lot of cultural differences between themselves locally before you throw any foreigners into the mix.
None of the locals who here who see my surname ask me if I am Jewish, but most expats do ask if I have a Jewish background because of my surname.
A non-issue related to cultural differences
My wife asks them why they are speaking to her when I was the one who asked the question. If they continue to speak to her, she simply points to me and refuses to speak to them. One thing I still can’t understand is why, at 7-11s, they always give the change to her when I buy something. :loco:
[quote=“funkymonkey”]
My wife asks them why they are speaking to her when I was the one who asked the question. If they continue to speak to her, she simply points to me and refuses to speak to them. One thing I still can’t understand is why, at 7-11s, they always give the change to her when I buy something. :loco:[/quote]
Ha! I noticed this very same thing with my ex-gf. Is it possibly that there’s some sort of Taiwanese-Japanese cultural overrule that women hold the purse strings? It happened not just in the 7-Eleven but in taxis, restaurants, etc.
[quote=“super_lucky”][quote=“funkymonkey”]
My wife asks them why they are speaking to her when I was the one who asked the question. If they continue to speak to her, she simply points to me and refuses to speak to them. One thing I still can’t understand is why, at 7-11s, they always give the change to her when I buy something. :loco:[/quote]
Ha! I noticed this very same thing with my ex-gf. Is it possibly that there’s some sort of Taiwanese-Japanese cultural overrule that women hold the purse strings? It happened not just in the 7-Eleven but in taxis, restaurants, etc. [/quote]
Actually, wives very often control the family finances here.
The other day a good friend of my wife mentioned to me that her dad is a good doctor practicing Chinese Medicine. When I said that I may pay a visit, she got a little nervous and said “oh he will be uncomfortable to see a foreigner” and she giggled. Well she said that in Chinese, cause she can’t speak English.
Stuff like this happens all the time, every day, everywhere in Taiwan. People are visibly uncomfortable when a foreign looking human enters the room or addresses them.
Last time I was in a hospital waiting for my turn a nurse entered the room next to me. Inside I could hear her (again in Chinese, Sandman would not understand) yell to another nurse “a foreigner is waiting outside” - the other nurse yelled back “aaaaiooooo”.
oh, and Toasty
you could as well say ‘consider what other immigrant groups have to endure in Taiwan’.
[quote=“Gao Bohan”]No insult intended there, man of sand. I don’t believe that locals really perceive white people or other persons of foreign birth as Taiwanese. Getting permanent residency or citizenship doesn’t change that. You will always be the foreigner. You will always be treated as the foreigner, outside of your friends and family.
But Muzha Man says that’s BS. OK, it’s BS.[/quote]
Am I not really surprised that a local person would not assume I am an ROC National. Of course they assume otherwise as let’s face it, how many white people do you personally know that have ROC Nationality? But it doesn’t mean that I am treated any differently than other locals. I think not. I am not excluded from doing anything anybody else does here or living my life here just like any other locals.
I’m am just another person on the street living a normal life here. You wouldn’t notice me passing by.
you could as well say ‘consider what other immigrant groups have to endure in Taiwan’.[/quote]
Is this supposed to be a point in actual support of your argument? But, ok, why don’t you consider what other “groups have to endure in Taiwan?” Perhaps look at, for the purposes of comparison, the plight of South-Asian domestic workers and labourers.
The worst thing we get to complain about is some service sector workers speaking English to us or handing change to our Chinese companions. Non-issues relating to cultural differences. Nothing more. They do no real harm to you. Don’t let them ruin your day or rule your life.
[quote=“touduke”]The other day a good friend of my wife mentioned to me that her dad is a good doctor practicing Chinese Medicine. When I said that I may pay a visit, she got a little nervous and said “oh he will be uncomfortable to see a foreigner” and she giggled. Well she said that in Chinese, cause she can’t speak English.
Stuff like this happens all the time, every day, everywhere in Taiwan. People are visibly uncomfortable when a foreign looking human enters the room or addresses them.
Last time I was in a hospital waiting for my turn a nurse entered the room next to me. Inside I could hear her (again in Chinese, Sandman would not understand) yell to another nurse “a foreigner is waiting outside” - the other nurse yelled back “aaaaiooooo”.[/quote]
You’re right – I wouldn’t understand. It doesn’t happen to me, you see. In fact, it seems like it happens to you and just a handful of others. Most people posting here don’t even notice. Which leads me to the unavoidable conclusion that its NOT your foreignness that puts them off. So it must be something else. How often do your bathe, for example?
I’m beginning to think these newbies are damn ugly seeing as how they get so many stares and uncomfortable looks.
But really, are you guys not noticing that those of us who live here long time (long here long time ) are not experiencing these issues. Is it because we show no fear or discomfort ourselves when we are around Taiwanese? Perhaps the discomfort is something you are projecting and locals are simply responding subconsciously.
You could reply that we longterm foreigners have gotten used to things here but I don’t believe that. I’ve never gotten used to garbage or ugly buildings. Furthermore, compare expat experiences in China to Taiwan: people there do complain after years of living there that they are not accepted. Japan is the same. Korea. Thailand. Foreigners there feel like expats after 15 years. In Taiwan, many of us feel like locals.
Taiwan is an immigrant society with, as Satellite TV has said, many differing ethnic groups already. But of course I don’t expect that the majority are going to guess when they see me that I am just part of the latest round of immigrants; I don’t expect that most people won’t assume I’m here for a short stay; but I do know that there are few issues with being a resident here, and society at large seems perfectly comfortable having me here permanently when I tell them this is my intention. When I further tell them how long I’ve been here, the things I have done, and that I have a local wife, the majority are delighted. Visibly delighted. Some even suggest I get a local wife if that hasn’t come up in the conversation yet. If this was a racist hostile place I can’t imagine how a working class taxi driver, for example, would suggest that I take one of their women and settle down permanently. Well, maybe he was being polite. In which case god give us more such xenophobes.
[quote=“Mucha Man”]I’m beginning to think these newbies are damn ugly seeing as how they get so many stares and uncomfortable looks.
But really, are you guys not noticing that those of us who live here long time (long here long time ) are not experiencing these issues. Is it because we show no fear or discomfort ourselves when we are around Taiwanese? Perhaps the discomfort is something you are projecting and locals are simply responding subconsciously.
You could reply that we longterm foreigners have gotten used to things here but I don’t believe that. I’ve never gotten used to garbage or ugly buildings. Furthermore, compare expat experiences in China to Taiwan: people there do complain after years of living there that they are not accepted. Japan is the same. Korea. Thailand. Foreigners there feel like expats after 15 years. In Taiwan, many of us feel like locals.
Taiwan is an immigrant society with, as Satellite TV has said, many differing ethnic groups already. But of course I don’t expect that the majority are going to guess when they see me that I am just part of the latest round of immigrants; I don’t expect that most people won’t assume I’m here for a short stay; but I do know that there are few issues with being a resident here, and society at large seems perfectly comfortable having me here permanently when I tell them this is my intention. When I further tell them how long I’ve been here, the things I have done, and that I have a local wife, the majority are delighted. Visibly delighted. Some even suggest I get a local wife if that hasn’t come up in the conversation yet. If this was a racist hostile place I can’t imagine how a working class taxi driver, for example, would suggest that I take one of their women and settle down permanently. Well, maybe he was being polite. In which case god give us more such xenophobes. [/quote]
great post, you are a shining example of what all Muchaites can aspire to.
seriously though, any weird, awkward, uncomfortable, or even hostile situation in TW can easily be smoothed over instantly with a bit of finesse.
-Random individuals saying “Sorry” in heavily-accented English in my office building (when perhaps “Excuse me” or “不好意思” would be more appropriate)[/quote]
More appropriate in whose mind? Yours? Why don’t you consider the perspective of the speaker? Maybe he’s too 不好意思 to say 不好意思 to someone he thinks may not understand. Maybe he thinks speaking to you in English shows you more respect.
[/quote]
Guy needs to press the buttons in the elevator and needs me to get out of the way. “Sorry” isn’t the right word. Excuse me is. Or 不好意思. Or 接過. That’s what I meant by more appropriate.
Or (happened twenty minutes ago) some guys blocking the entire sidewalk. I asked them to jieguo and I get a “sooo-rry” back. I don’t need a sorry because I’m white; I really just need him to get out of the way. Especially when I’ve just addressed him in Chinese.
Not when the guy puts the English menu on top of the Chinese one while I’m FUCKING READING THE THING. With my fingers on the words.
It is mildly irritating, not really upsetting. It’s just an example. And I may not be a mind reader but when I can understand the words that the staff are saying to each other I don’t need to be.
[quote=“Toasty”]
I’ll grant that these situations are mildly irritating; and I’ve experienced them. But, again, consider intent. And is this type of behaviour really any more than a mild irritant? Consider what immigrant groups have had to endure in other countries.[/quote]
Yes, fine. I’m not being attacked for being white and stealing their jobs and fucking their women. I completely agree. And for that (among many other things) I love this country and don’t ever want to leave. But since the topic isn’t about “racial discrimination and how little I’ve encountered it in Taiwan” I feel entitled to post about the on-topic issues that irritate me. It’s fucking rude to direct answers to my questions to the person standing next to me and assume I’m too fucking retarded to understand the response. Especially when I’m the one who was doing the asking.
I’m not a n00b, and it’s precisely BECAUSE I’ve been here so long and speak decent Mandarin that I find it so fucking irritating. I’ve been here since 1997, more or less.
[quote=“sandman”]
The HORROR!
Honest, do you look kind of vacant or something? No offence meant by that, but its just something I find so weird because it simply doesn’t happen to me, or at least, it happens so seldom that I can’t really recall it happening. And I live in Taipei, where LOADS of locals speak English.[/quote][/quote]
No, Sandman, I don’t look vacant and I shower daily or twice-daily. However, you may be onto something. It’s possible my stunning good looks and incredible charm simply strike people dumb and make it impossible for me to be taken at face value. I usually enjoy perfectly interesting and normal conversations with taxi drivers, as a counter-example and maybe it’s simply because they’re not attracted to me.
I don’t blame her. I get unconfortable when other foreigners say they are going to pay me a visit too. I’m not used to it. ( they often get completely lost up where I live and I find them usually an hour or so away from my home ) Maybe that’s all she meant.
You cannot be sure how the Doctor himself would act anyways. He never told you he would feel uncomfortable.
Chinese doctors deal with patients all the time, those that can and can’t speak Mandarin or Taiwanese as well. it’s not like he is going to stamp out your life like squishing a cockroach.
That’s a very positive way of looking at things, I definitely agree that a large part of being stared at here starts with staring at other people, it took me a year to realize that one haha. And if there is any kind of racism here it’s by and large NOT a negatively charged form of racism. But I think we can all agree the average Taiwanese can stereotype with the best of them.
I do disagree with one point, that is that most Taiwanese people see you and don’t assume you are FOB. Because literally every time I talk with someone on the street, I’m an English teacher. 100% of the time. And to me that’s pretty much the same thing as saying I’m FOB. I used to think that maybe if enough of them hear that I’m actually a computer engineer I might somehow put a dent in the stereotype. Of course now I hold no such fools hopes.
I suppose if I were 50 years old or wore a pinstripe suit around town I could probably get that number down to at least 50%. Because I have to admit, I do pretty much dress like an FOB English teacher haha.
I don’t blame her. I get unconfortable when other foreigners say they are going to pay me a visit too. I’m not used to it. ( they often get completely lost up where I live and I find them usually an hour or so away from my home ) Maybe that’s all she meant.
[/quote]
C’mon, now you’re just laying it on for the sake of laying it on. Are you being purposefully dense? Seriously, do you really even think about what other people write? That is so clearly not touduke’s meaning, if you don’t see that we may as well be a bunch of monkeys throwing poo at each other in this thread.
FWIW Spaint I think you’re spot on in everything you say, I could have written everything you wrote myself. :bravo: I can’t believe some people don’t feel even the slightest bit of disrespect when you spend years and years learning a mind-numbingly difficult language and still get such silly reactions for no reason. If a dude in an NYC elevator said “Konichiwa” to a random Asian, he might very likely get punched in the face.
One thing I still can’t understand is why, at 7-11s, they always give the change to her when I buy something. :loco:
) are not experiencing these issues. Is it because we show no fear or discomfort ourselves when we are around Taiwanese? Perhaps the discomfort is something you are projecting and locals are simply responding subconsciously.