“Why doesnt China simply adopt the R.O.C. system of government”
Why do we think Mainland people would want it?
Probably in the 60s and 70s, but now??? It’s, at least, twenty years too late. The life quality in China changed rapidly in the past 10 years, not so much in Taiwan, and people are not blind. My girlfriend’s income increased 4 times, now she owns two new apartments (120 and 150 sqm) in a very expensive city, and she would never change Mainland for Taiwan. Never. Ok, she’s smart, but she’s not the only one.
How big is Taiwan? Same as Shanghai+Hangzhou, or even less than 1/4 of Shandong Province, so what works in Taiwan could maybe work in Jinan+Qingdao+few villages, but what works in Taiwan wouldn’t work in Beijing, Xinjiang, Shanghai, Tibet and Inner Mongolia.
Would Taiwan’s system work in Macau or Hongkong, btw?
Could Taiwan’s system manage Mainland’s whole road and rail system very well, as example? Mainland isn’t Taipei-Kaohsiung line only, which was maybe going perfectly, or do we really think all the 2,000,000 Chinese US$-millionairs would agree to change the system? Never. The nouveaux riches from Mainland China love their communistic capitalism in today’s China simply too much, and hate as well democracy as “democracy”.
what i meant was ideology. The ideology behind the constitution of the R.O.C. It may and probably was badly mis-interpreted by the KMT in CHINA. But perhaps the modern China could introspect itself. Is it a communist country like Cuba? Is it a Stalinist country like Russia was?
Is it a Social Democratic country? LIke France largely was/ is?
What is it?
Whatever solution works for China, let China finetune it.
Let Taiwan be Taiwan and China be China. when China succeeds in upholding a living standard that Taiwanese people enjoy in todays Taiwan, then I dont see a problem with TAiwan Uniting with a China that is so similar to itself?
Taiwanese fear a loss of freedom if they should unite with China. They fear authoritarianism.
They fear communism
We are not talking really about China "giving in " to Taiwan or any loss of face.
We are talking about the need for China to reinvent itself if you will. From a malevolent dragon to a benevolent one? so that all of the chinese race can again be PROUD to be the DESCENDANT OF THE DRAGON !!
First, the question is wrong. The question is, is there a better system of government than the People’s Republic of China? I say there are many. Just because China is improving from the miserable state it was, isn’t enough of a reason.
Anyone can improve from the insufferable conditions of China in the 1960’s. Even many times. Thats akin to saying, “I now score a 55% on my tests, a far improvement from my usual 10%; its more than a 5 fold improvement so I am successful”.
[quote=“Taibeijing”]“Why doesnt China simply adopt the R.O.C. system of government”
Why do we think Mainland people would want it?[/quote]
Its better than the system of government they have now, in which only the positive aspects of their lives are hyped but problems like the Aids epidemic and increasing poverty of 2/3rds of the country is hid away. People have little recourse for the injustices brought upon them by a virtually fascist government. Although China should simply adopt a Democracy and work to vastly improve their civil liberties and human rights as well as written laws. At that point the ground rules are laid out for the people of China, and the Taiwanese have few reasons to not unify unless China has already isolated itself too much from the self-identity of the people of Taiwan.
Quality in life in China thankfully doubled. But its still not comparable to the standard of living in most Westernized nations. It was easy to vastly improve on the very poor conditions in China during the 60’s and 70’s. Try improving upon the already high standards of living in Switzerland. Its very difficult and of course they don’t make the giant leaps.
If improvement however major or small is all you care about, regardless of the stature you have amongst the world, then thats a horribly low standard to measure yourself. Thats like patting yourself on the back for taking baby steps. You want to compare yourself with the best and aim higher.
Democracies have run well in countries big in small, as large as the United States and India, and as small as Switzerland.
Taiwan’s system provides more incentives to individuals. Although a lot of the old laws benefit corruption which needs to be improved.
The question that should have been asked is, is there a BETTER system than the PRC?
Communistic Capitalism?!? Really?
Anyway I think Nationalism is at an all time high in China and many Chinese are proud of it because they know there is virtually no chance the CCP will relinquish control to the actual people. With almost zero hope of a democracy or better system of government because of the power the CCP holds, and Nationalism rising higher than ever, the only thing to do is to bite the bullet and claim pride in a government that is considered the most corrupt of the super powers. There is no choice so might as well praise all you’ve got.
Its easier than actually doing something about the problems in China.
If China takes over Taiwan, all the people in the Pro-China crowd here are just going to applaud the corrupt elements in the ROC and just do nothing except show “Pride & Nationalism”? Sounds very lazy to me. One of the major problems I have with unification is just that, many Chinese won’t lift a finger about the injustices being done by their own government, and in fact highly support it. Assures me that many will do absolutely nothing to protect the people of Taiwan when she needs the help.
[quote=“tommy525”]what i meant was ideology. The ideology behind the constitution of the R.O.C. It may and probably was badly mis-interpreted by the KMT in CHINA. But perhaps the modern China could introspect itself. Is it a communist country like Cuba? Is it a Stalinist country like Russia was?
Is it a Social Democratic country? LIke France largely was/ is?
What is it?
Whatever solution works for China, let China finetune it.
Let Taiwan be Taiwan and China be China. when China succeeds in upholding a living standard that Taiwanese people enjoy in todays Taiwan, then I dont see a problem with TAiwan Uniting with a China that is so similar to itself?
Taiwanese fear a loss of freedom if they should unite with China. They fear authoritarianism.
They fear communism
We are not talking really about China "giving in " to Taiwan or any loss of face.
We are talking about the need for China to reinvent itself if you will. From a malevolent dragon to a benevolent one? so that all of the chinese race can again be PROUD to be the DESCENDANT OF THE DRAGON !![/quote]
They fear the unknown. That’s why there have been advocates of cultural exchanges between Taiwan and the Mainland for years, prior to any pursuit of a political solution between both sides.
However, how is that possible when the environment on Taiwan is so hostile to the Mainland on an idealogical level. Just look at the immigration policy for PRC spouses of ROC citizens on Taiwan, compared to other foriegn spouses. They have to wait an additional 5 years for naturalization.
Compare the tourism policy between PRC for ROC citizens and a ROC for PRC citizens. It like ROC is running a Nazi camp for the rich PRC tourist. (BTW the KMT was original based on the Blue Collar faction of the Nazi party).
Like the other poster stated the shear size and diversity on the Mainland, in addition to ROC not able to prove it has a superior system of governance, of course people would hestitate to adopt the ROC on the Mainland. The biggest slap to ROC face was when Deng Xiao Ping went to Singapore in the 70’s and said modern PRC should model themselves after Singapore.
Remember 6/4…how many protestor were waving the ROC or KMT flag in Tiananmen that day…I wonder why?
Please remeber now that Mao and CKS were almost like brothers in law, and each of them wanted to rule after Dr. Sun Yat Sen.
Mao kicked CKS all the way to Taiwan, and then they could start their own Empires.
CKS Empire was bigger that Mao’s empire, in his brain.
Luckily these two small emperors to be died, and change happened.
Now, the legacy and tragedy of both men are exposed - they were both ruthless killers that would not let anything in their way to stop their control of the “empire”.
Taiwan has developed much better than China since then.
Remember 6/4…how many protestor were waving the ROC or KMT flag in Tiananmen that day…I wonder why?[/quote]
They were killed or denied access (hopefully in the oposite order) before they came that far.
-Not really, back then in -89, people in Taiwan was as brainwashed as people can be, and probably are in China today. The demonstrators just wanted fredom and democracy, not another authocracy, as Taiwan were those days.
You keep saying things like this, but it’s simply not true. I’m telling you this not just because our fundamental differences on Taiwan’s status or future; I’m telling you this because I really think you should inform yourself on the above point.
World Bank research shows that from 1980-2000, China managed to bring 400 million people out of poverty (above $1 a day). World Bank research shows that in the rest of the developing world, the number of people living in poverty actually INCREASED from 1980-2000… growing from 840 million to 890 million.
[quote=“tommy525”]what i meant was ideology. The ideology behind the constitution of the R.O.C. It may and probably was badly mis-interpreted by the KMT in CHINA. But perhaps the modern China could introspect itself. Is it a communist country like Cuba? Is it a Stalinist country like Russia was?
Is it a Social Democratic country? LIke France largely was/ is?
What is it?[/quote]
I’m curious what you mean by the above then. What exactly does the ideology behind the constitution of the R.O.C. mean today? Is modern Taiwan staying loyal to the sanmin zhuyi? That’s not a rhetorical question; I really don’t know what you mean, and how to interpret sanmin zhuyi in the 21st century.
In response to your question, I would say the vast majority of Chinese reject any idea of ideology, period. Ideology is something that’s been discarded as a goal.
Most Chinese want only one thing: a more prosperous, stable life. If you dig deeper, I think most Chinese also agree with the domestic goal that has been laid out by Beijing: a harmonious (hexie) society (that’s not to say everyone agrees the Communist Party has the ability of achieving that specific goal).
In terms of foreign policy, how should China change? I don’t see any reason for change. China is insisting on non-violent resolution of border issues with most of her border nations. China is spreading development wealth to her trading partners. I don’t know how this ideology or policy should be modified, but I am always interested in listening.
It seems to me like the only policy/ideology change you have for China comes back to the same “letting Taiwan go”. I still don’t really believe you’re thinking of Chinese interests when you make that statement.
[quote=“tommy525”]Taiwan couldnt separate if the ROC system and FLAG was the system of ALL CHINA could it?[/quote]I don’t think it would change anything at all from Taipei’s point of view. Chen Shui-bian is dismantling the remnants of the traditional ROC as fast as CKS’s bust (and soon, Sun’s bust) can removed. He and his core supporters couldn’t care less about the color of China’s flag.
I think if you expanded your circle a little, you’d find MANY Taiwanese who live in mainland China for an extended amount of time. The statistics they give include millions in the Shanghai area. I don’t know if that’s accurate or not, but I know anecdotally, there are MANY MANY Taiwanese living and working in China.
Uh, do your Chinese friends live in dorms?
I’ve yet to see an apartment building built in the past 10 years where “sharing the toilet down the hall is customary”. Now, if we were flashing back 20 years, then “sharing the toilet down the street” would have been customary.
[quote]The Taiwanese economy is doing well, thank you.
In the 25K-30K GDP - PPP bracket (France, Sweden, Italy, EU, Singapore, Taiwan, Quatar, Spain and New Zealand), Taiwan ranks:
6th in GDP - per capita (PPP): Taiwan: 27,600. Group average: 27,867.
3rd in GDP - real growth rate: Taiwan: 3.8%. Group avarage: 3.4%.
4th in Unemployment rate: Taiwan 4.1%. Group average: 6.2% [/quote]
Take out the European nations, and do another analysis with Asian countries.
Or, to put it another way… I bet France would be growing an awful lot quicker if it was 100 miles off the coast off of a French-speaking economy growing 10%+ per year.
Wrong, CC. It said that 15% of the population SAID “ethnic” tension was a problem. Of course, in those days, lying on polls was routine. Now that we have free speech, people can say what thoughtful observers going back four decades already knew – that ethnic tension is a serious problem on the island.
See, when I saw that very statistic, I thought it was pretty indisputable evidence that somethings had worsened in Taiwan over the past 15 years. But no, someone else told me… rest assured, one of the CSB apologists would surely manufacture something, despite the total lack of supporting evidence, that would successfully frame this statistic in a positive manner.
I should’ve known it would be you!
Along the same lines, rural China is doing wonderfully well… the growing number of popular protests are just a sign of the improved diet available for Chinese farmers.
…then they shouldn’t complain if Taiwan competes in the Olympics as “the ROC” and their fans wave the ROC flag.[/quote]
thats what i been harping about. That Chinas strong arm tactics have very much contributed to TAiwanese wanting to STOP calling themselves “Chinese” because for so long Taiwan has been belittled and laughed at by the world community when the KMT government continued to call for “re-taking the mainland” and what not.
And the TAiwanese passport waas less useful then the one from any african country.
China forced Taiwans hand to “relinquish” any claims to China and to being “chinese from CCP’s China”
the CCP never had Taiwan, therefore they have NO CLAIM to it
If the CCP changes its system, the best system to pattern itself after is actually the USA system.
I nominated the R.O.C constitution and flag as a major political weapon China could use
Taiwan cannot stop China from using the R.O.C. constitution and flag because they originated in China. And TAiwan would be hard pressed to divorce itself from a ROC modelled China.
I think since the island of Taiwan is not going to be able to move away. Just let the Taiwanese call themselves whatever the heck they want to.
In time China will enjoy a greater society of an eviable nature and then TAiwan will come calling for some sort of "alliance " or what not.
There is no CHANGE that is CONSTANT, but the ONLY CONSTANT is CHANGE .