Why housing is not coming back and the next bubble

Why Housing Is Not Coming Back

[quote]The entire world is hoping that housing is about to “recover” and re-ascend its glorious bubble-era heights of valuation. But it’s not going to happen.

Why not? For several fundamental reasons:

  1. Bubbles do not re-inflate in the asset class which just popped.
  2. Inflation sets the “recovery” target ever higher.
  3. Perhaps counter-intuitively, deflation also ravages bubble-era valuations.

[…]

Why would interest rates rise? Easy–the U.S. is borrowing trillions of dollars a year and once the rest of the world either runs out of cash or the desire to give us all their surplus capital then interest rates will rocket regardless of what the Fed or U.S. Treasury do. (Recall the analogy of the Financial Royalty standing knee-deep in a rising tide demanding the waters recede. Good luck with that, fellas.)

As for loose/fraudulent lending–you know the story already. It isn’t coming back.

So if the fundamental drivers of insanely low interest rates and insanely loose lending are not coming back, then precisely what forces will reinflate the housing bubble? The answer is: none.
[/quote]

One of my friends forwarded me this article at The Business Insider. It does well at explaining why there is nothing that President Obama can do to get the housing market to return to what it was a few years ago. Bubbles don’t reinflate right after they have just exploded. Lots of people will owe more on their house than it is worth, because they bought in a bubble. Many more will lose their houses and prices will get driven back down to what they were 6 or 7 years ago. It is going to lock many families into a house for a long time because the house they own now can’t be resold without taking a huge loss.

What it also highlights two asset categories that they think are currently being “bubbled”. The first is the bonds market and then the second is the precious metals market including gold and silver. I’m curious as to everyone’s thoughts of what will happen if precious metals become the next bubble. Will it double, maybe triple, the price of gold before tanking? Anyone know a good prediction market we can bet on?

People are not going to live in houses anymore. This is the future.

Invest in pearl milk tea futures. The next bubble for sure.

That stuff is not going to catch on.

Here is what I heard on the Google. The US has always had an economic cycle of boom, bust, boom, bust,… Until the big bust in 1929, then they instituted regulations that stopped the cycle. Until the great deregulation craze of the the 90s and 00s. Now we’re back to boom and bust. Of course there’s money to be made, but a lot of people get hurt in the process.

The question is, will the Taiwan housing bubble burst? It seems to get more and more inflated of late with the insanely low interest rates enticing potential buyers.

What kind of down payment is required for housing in Taiwan? How often is it purchased outright without using a mortgage? The 0 down and low interest rates is what wrecked the US housing market. If the majority of the homeowners their home outright, or are speculating with their own money, then as long as they continue to pay the taxes there won’t be a bursting of the bubble. It may be a slow leak as inflation eats away the value of their property, but it shouldn’t mirror the US.

Well the burst already started a few months ago now. I think the question is more like how long is it going to take Taipei to drop 40% in value.

[quote=“lbksig”]Why Housing Is Not Coming Back

[quote]The entire world is hoping that housing is about to “recover” and re-ascend its glorious bubble-era heights of valuation. But it’s not going to happen.

Why not? For several fundamental reasons:

  1. Bubbles do not re-inflate in the asset class which just popped.
  2. Inflation sets the “recovery” target ever higher.
  3. Perhaps counter-intuitively, deflation also ravages bubble-era valuations.
    {…}

So if the fundamental drivers of insanely low interest rates and insanely loose lending are not coming back, then precisely what forces will reinflate the housing bubble? The answer is: none.
[/quote]

One of my friends forwarded me this article at The Business Insider. It does well at explaining why there is nothing that President Obama can do to get the housing market to return to what it was a few years ago. Bubbles don’t reinflate right after they have just exploded. Lots of people will owe more on their house than it is worth, because they bought in a bubble. Many more will lose their houses and prices will get driven back down to what they were 6 or 7 years ago. It is going to lock many families into a house for a long time because the house they own now can’t be resold without taking a huge loss. [/quote]

The general advice by consumer groups on overinflated mortgages has been simple: walk away and let the house be taken. There’s no point trying to make payments you can’t afford, so stop paying and start over and start renting for now. In some cases, banks don’t want people to walk and may start becoming flexible and renegotiate to avoid dealing with forclosed homes; many cities in the US have enacted laws dictating that the owner (the bank, after foreclosure) must take care of them, and banks would rather have a tenant.

One of the biggest causes of the bubble bursting is the idiots who built half-million dollar mansions instead of 1200-1500 square footers that people needed and could afford. Those building houses got caught up in the same greed as the “subprime mortgage” lenders. If people could have gotten loans in 2000 at the same interest rates they got for 3000 square foot homes, they might have already paid off their homes.

I have never understood the point of buying a large house if one isn’t rich. If one buys something small and cheaper, it’s owned sooner and that means the money can be socked away instead of being spent on mortgage payments. Then you buy a bigger home once you’ve saved some cash.

The same people who said “buy buy buy” before the stock collapse last year are now saying “sell sell sell” about the gold market. Somehow, I don’t trust them.

Look up the term “gold leasing”. Gold and silver markets worldwide are flooded with paper promissory notes and no gold to back them up. You might see the market collapse within three years. Gold prices are high right now, but if you want to buy, make sure you only get physical coins and bullion, not promisory notes. Much of the “gold” being sold in this market doesn’t exist; if everyone tried to collect their gold all at one, the market wouldn’t have enough to cover it. Just as US stooge politicians (and other countries) changed the laws for banks on loans, the US and Europe changed the laws for the selling of gold and how their Central Banks operate.

the-privateer.com/gold4.html
gold-eagle.com/editorials_99 … 81999.html

Few problems I see with this paragraph:

  1. Credit is the end all be all with the US consumer, walking away from your foolishly bought home except under dire economic straits may not be the wisest decision credit wise unless you are filing or planning to file for bankruptcy. Either way it’s a long term black mark on your credit record and will impact your chances to rent, get a credit card, loan or another mortgage. You may even have credit card companies cancel your cards when they catch it during their periodic credit checks on their customers. You will also not be able to use a credit union.

  2. Banks and collection agencies they subcontract out to don’t give a hoot about your situation. Even the mortgages that have been refinanced have a higher than normal rate of default. What they want is their money, hence why most banks don’t keep loans on their books, but offload them to fannie and freddie mac.

  3. The cities, such as Buffalo, that do this to lenders either cause 1 of 2 things to happen. Either the lender charges more in an insurance premium in those cities in case of default or if that being illegal raises his rates across the board to make up for any economic inconvenience caused by laws on foreclosed homes. Either way due to poor citywide economic planning and laws, the consumer is punished with higher rates.

The reason people don’t want homes in Buffalo, New York is that there is no sustainable way to economically support themselves and buy a house in Buffalo in much the same way that Detroit has similar problems. Last I checked neither State nor City is doing all that great inviting in businesses or getting their residents to start businesses that enrich the community. Matter of fact, I would say that those same states and cities are doing their very best to drive businesses away through high taxes and regulation. If high taxes and strict regulations were the end all be all of economic development, we’d all be speaking or learning French, Chinese, or Russian.

[quote=“Okami”]

  1. Credit is the end all be all with the US consumer, walking away from your foolishly bought home except under dire economic straits may not be the wisest decision credit wise unless you are filing or planning to file for bankruptcy. Either way it’s a long term black mark on your credit record and will impact your chances to rent, get a credit card, loan or another mortgage. You may even have credit card companies cancel your cards when they catch it during their periodic credit checks on their customers. You will also not be able to use a credit union. [/quote]

OMG! But the world will stop spinning if people are forced to buy stuff with money that they have actually saved! Whilst the nice government men are forcing down the price of the greatest currency ever known and trying to raise the prices of houses so that people can’t afford to live in them again, perhaps one of them might think about the reason the financial system collapsed in the first place?!

I’ve never understood the point of buying a large house if one isn’t super-rich. Your analysis is only half on the money.

Mortgage payments are not the main issue, provided you can actually afford the mortgage payments comfortably enough.

Larger houses have greater running costs. You’ll pay more in taxes, utility bills and maintenance costs. This leads into the idea that your primary residence is not, in fact an asset, but a liability.

“A liability,” I hear you ask?

Yes, a liability. Unless you plan to sell out of it in retirement, it’s quite possible for you to retire house rich and cash poor.

Even still, in the meantime, you can live in a $100,000,000.00 super-mansion, but what a stupid investment. What’s all that money doing for you? It’s not making more money for you (other than the rising value of the house itself). In fact, it’s costing you money in taxes, utility bills and maintenance.

Instead, you’d be better off following something like the 75-20-5 rule. At least 75% of your money should be in income producing assets, 20% should be in your house, and 5% should be in all your possessions (including your cars – people own too much stuff as well as too much house). Obviously, when you’re first starting out, you’re not going to have anywhere near 75% of your money in investements, but it’s a goal to work towards.

Instead of paying off a small house and upgrading to a bigger house and trying to pay that off, you should be keeping say 20% of your money in your house and investing the rest either through acquiring more property which you rent (and said property will both appreciate in value over the long term and also bring you passive income), or in the stock market or in businesses.

The only real reason I could see for upgrading to a bigger house would be starting off with a very small place when single or just a couple, and then needing some extra room (notice I didn’t say a lot of extra room) if you had kids. People have this mindset in the West that everything has to be bigger and better. That’s precisely why the middle class dream keeps people middle class and mediocre. They waste all their money on keeping up with the Joneses and they have to commute and slave away at jobs they hate so they can pay to commute and pay for all the stuff they think they need to keep up with everyone else or to block out the reality of their shitty lives. Big houses are like a millstone around the necks of most people. They enslave people.

Instead, you’d be better off following something like the 75-20-5 rule. At least 75% of your money should be in income producing assets, 20% should be in your house, and 5% should be in all your possessions (including your cars – people own too much stuff as well as too much house). Obviously, when you’re first starting out, you’re not going to have anywhere near 75% of your money in investements, but it’s a goal to work towards.
[/quote]

:eh:

but the traditional view is to include the property as part of the savings, so do you mean you save 95% of your income - or you mean 20% of your money is on rent?

Also, surely even with mortgage payments at 1:2 depite throwing away 2 dollars of every dollar repaid, if the rent is still the same as that total you’re actually “saving money over renting”?

Further, in relation to the latest crash…the 75% saved may have been broken up as
40% cash - deflated away (8%?)
25% stocks - 40% down (or more?)
10% bonds - arent these also not being paid back for 10%losses?
25% property - (taiwan) 2% down?

So your property would be your best performing investment

Though I am from the family of a surveyor, whose personal motto was “bricks and mortar, when properly built, never crash”
(ie, because you can always still live in it, so can never be too upset even if the value is lost)

Still, Im interrested to know your recommended investment ratios

itakitez: Firstly, I’m not a financial expert, I’m just sharing some of what I’ve read. People should do a lot more research, rather than simply taking my word for it.

I’m not talking about renting vs buying. If you’re able to lock in a low rate on a mortgage, over the long haul, aside from building equity in a home, you will indeed save money compared to rent because of inflation (because your mortgage payment will stay the same, but your rent will probably increase at inflation).

What I am talking about is the relative percentages of net worth. Your house may indeed increase in value (one would hope so!), but it won’t bring in passive income in the way that other things will. As such, money in your house isn’t a bad thing, but it isn’t a great thing either because that money doesn’t work as hard as investments.

When looking at types of investments, over the long term, stocks and property will outpace inflation. Over several decades, if you’ve bought with value in mind (instead of jumping on a bandwagon), you’ll be fine. Not so with cash. Bonds I don’t know a lot about, but they’re somewhere in the middle over the long term.

On a side note, running your own business really trumps most of what people will do for jobs and making money, and it also gives you a certain freedom to do things your way – even if you’re working really hard, it’s still your thing, so probably a lot more satisfying. I know success rates are low, but you can do it on the side, or maybe even take that risk. I personally think most people who have gone to university from my generation have been suckered into being mediocre by the mantra of getting an education. Even if they do get a decent job, their lifestyles rise accordingly (how many professionals would turn up to work in an old bomb?), and they become tied to their job because they’re too unwilling to live a few hard years now for many good years in the future. Frankly, I wouldn’t advise my children to go to university unless they were genuinely really interested in what they wanted to study or were quite content to be mediocre for the rest of their lives. Likewise with most white collar jobs. I’ll be teaching my kids about money from a young age and heavily encouraging their entrepreneurial spirits so that by the time they’re of university age, they’ll be doing their own thing (and failing several times if need be along the way), not following all the other lemmings over the corporate employment cliff.

Property can indeed decline in value, so the old notion of bricks and mortar is not true. All things being equal (e.g. your level of expertise in seeking out good investments at good prices, luck in the movement of the market, especially when you want to start drawing down on your assets), over the long term, stocks out-perform real estate.

Also, more importantly, as I have been pointing out, is that you can be house rich and cash poor.

Here’s an example. Let’s say you want to retire on $50,000/year. Living off a 5% return on your investment would mean you’d need $1,000,000 to do so, but that doesn’t include the effects of inflation in eroding the value of that money. By the Rule of 72 (basically, divide 72 by the percentage change and it’s the time it will take something to double or halve in value, depending upon which way you’re going), at 4% inflation, it will take 18 years for your money to halve. In 36 years, it will be worth a quarter of what it is today. In 54 years, it will be worth one eighth. That’s why any investment that doesn’t outpace inflation (for instance, cash) is really bad in the long term.

Anyway, back to our example. If you want to retire on $50,000/year (in today’s money), you need $1,000,000 (in today’s money). Even assuming you outpace inflation, here’s the potential problem. You need that in income producing assets. Your house does not produce income for you (unless you’re renting out part of it or you’re using it as a business). So, you could be sitting on a $1,000,000 house, but where’s that $50,000/year going to come from? You could use a reverse mortgage, but at most, that’s going to give you twenty years’ worth of equity (actually a lot less once you take out fees and inflation). You could sell your house and scale down. Even if you scale down to a $200,000 house (probably a major lifestyle change someone used to a $1,000,000 house would not be happy with), and even assuming no fees for doing so, you’d still only have $800,000 in income producing assets, so you’d be retiring on $40,000/year, not $50,000/year.

Hence, house rich, cash poor. So, you would need to have at least $1,000,000 outside your house in incoming producing assets. I’m not entirely sure why the 75-20-5 rule (which isn’t hard and fast, and really depends upon a lot of other factors) other than the more you have in the first category (assets), the more you earn, which means you can live better in retirement or get there quicker. The more you have in the other two categories (house; stuff, including cars), the less you have to invest to build up the first category, so the less you retire on, or the later you retire. It may simply be that you’re diverting too much money away from the first category if you move away from 75-20-5. Putting all your money into your house is a case of that because each dollar of house above and beyond what you need (and here it’s important to really take a very honest look at needs and wants) does not work as hard for you as it could in other things.

That’s why I said the middle class dream (finish school, go to university, get a steady job, pay off a house) keeps people middle class and mediocre. Far from being free in retirement, plenty of people are really hamstrung by their finances. They’re no less free than they were when they were commuting 3 hours every day to and from a job they didn’t like.

This is largely the case with my parents. My father started his own business, but he didn’t really invest well. He and my mother have always had this morbid obsession with getting the biggest mortgage they could afford and paying it off as quickly as possible, and they also let their lifestyles increase in cost accordingly along the way. To be fair, they’re still way ahead of most people their age, but they’re not where they want to be or should be. They’re now extremely house rich and asset poor. At the end of this year, they’re moving to yet a more expensive house (WHY?! :aiyo: ) and they’re really worried about being able to afford it now (because they signed a contract for it to be built pretty well right at the height of the bubble, and they’re pretty well going to sell their current house at the bottom of the market – my sister is trying to advise them to rent out their current place until the market picks up again, and then sell, but they’re not keen on the idea of not owning a large part of their house at all :doh: ). All of my life, my father was really against investing in the stock market (because he considered – and probably does again after the past couple of years – it too risky compared to real estate, despite having over-capitalised and/or taken losses on two of the three houses I’ve lived in, and being about to really screw themselves over the next switch :frowning: ), yet got into it through a financial advisor a few years ago. Now though, he’s had to watch his investments tank because he hasn’t allowed himself a long enough time frame for them to recover, and because for the majority of their lives, my parents have had their money sitting in ever bigger houses (which they have also had to maintain and clean – my mother is forever bemoaning the amount of housework she has to do, not realising that she’s brought that on by wanting an enormous house), and so he’s having to put off official retirement (he’s been in a state of semi-retirement for several years). Likewise, my mother doesn’t particularly like her job and she’s sick of work generally. My father will be 61 this year, and my mother 58, and they’re both feeling their age and ill-health. If things pick up again, I’m sure they’ll be quite fine (much better, actually, and my sister and I will probably inherit a small fortune, at least in today’s money), but by then, they may be too unwell to really enjoy their retirements. That’s them. Now imagine my relatives, and most other people, who are quite average financially. Retirement is not going to be pretty.

wow

thanks for your explanation, it helps clarify your thinking

I was really looking at it because I was going for a slightly different approach to either

Basically,

  1. I do have a bit of a commute now 1hour each way, but saying that, at weekends and holidays, I only have to roll over to be eactly where I wanna be, and neednt pay any rent or sit in traffic for 2 hours to get there when I could be hiking/cycling or by the beach as soon as I leave my door

  2. our house was cheap, and never an investment, so actually we save 5,000 a month on it by building equity that would have been blown on rent

Understand your cahs poor/equity stuff and know all about parents stressing themselves for a ‘house’

however, currently Im in two minds, I want to save to pay off half of my mortgage once the rates start floating more generously to the bank after 2 years of being locked in - now that in itself will either

  1. reduce our “rent” to 6000 a month (staying on 20year payback) or
  2. increase our percentage equity building to 1:1 (one lost to bank for each gained)

So… this is the confusion, that money would effectively be working for me since every dollar in pulls a dollar out of the bank’s grasp - and that is b eing saved away from rent… however, is it better for me to look to invest that instead and start building investments, or kill the mortgage (possible in 6 years) and then start saving for retirement?..

oh, decisions decisions!

oh and regarding timescales, I would be 33 and own a house big enough for a family, but not much else

itakitez: Okay, I see what you’re saying.

There are two things I would say. Firstly, regarding lifestyle, I think you’re definitely on the right track there. I couldn’t agree more. There’s a lot to be said for lifestyle, especially if it’s pretty cheap and easy to manage. It’s one thing to have what you’re doing, and another to be trying to live way beyond your means to keep up with everyone else.

Secondly, the sums will basically come down to return on capital, though you’re kind of committed already (because of lifestyle), so you have to make the best of what’s available. From what I’ve read, people advise against paying off your mortgage and then waiting to start investing, but I’ll have to go into this more later as I don’t have the time to think right through the sums right now and give you a clear example (and I don’t really want to ask your details because 1) I’m not a financial advisor, and 2) it’s not my place to). Basically though, you’d want to be looking at how much your house should likely be worth when you eventually came to sell it, and how much it would cost you (in terms of money paid for it, including mortgage payments, fees, maintenance costs, etc.). You’d calculate that as a return on your investment. You’d take a percentage of that house (say 80% in the 75-20-5 rule) and see if your return on your investment would be better if you took all those extra mortgage payments and applied them elsewhere, and then paid off your house at the end (and kept the difference). Could you beat the return on your house, basically? Plenty of professionals and amateurs alike in the personal finance field seem to think so. They’re really into the whole notion of passive income streams as soon as possible.

My own situation is that I have owned a house before, but didn’t know what I was doing, so didn’t do it well. I’m also trying to work out the best way for me to deal with my money right now. It’s been a real learning curve over the past few years. For instance, I’m seriously considering ditching my financial advisor, both because of the fees and because of the products he has me in (the more I read about value investing, the less and less comfortable I become with mutual funds).

I’m also waiting to decide upon some pretty big moves until the end of this year. My girlfriend and I are getting married this year, and she wants to move overseas to work. I need to see how that pans out as to what I will do. One way or another, I will definitely be investing (I currently am anyway), but it depends upon how and where. If we end up staying in Taiwan, over the next couple of years, I will be trying to really expand my side project of establishing private group classes to the point where I employ other people and give up working for other people all together. If that takes off, then it will mean a lot of different things (for instance, my big plan until now was to do a big Asian trip, but it would be better to postpone that if I had a successful business). So, I will probably look at buying a place here in Taiwan. I don’t like that I’m currently paying rent, but it does depend upon what happens at the end of this year. If we leave, then I probably won’t be paying rent elsewhere (because we’d be going to the Middle East to jobs that provide accomodation). If we stay, then I will probably buy a place here. Paying off even part of a mortgage changes the whole structure of anyone’s financial plans.

Anyway, I’ll get back to you about what you wrote (I thought my language exchange partner would be here ages ago, which is why I was largely prattling on about myself to kill time). I would suggest you read as much as you can on all manner of investing and personal finance. There’s a lot of very good information and inspiration out there.

That may be true in parts of Taiwan, but I’m not so sure about highly desirable areas in Taipei such as Hsinyi District or Songshan District (where I live). Prices don’t seem to have dropped much at all in Songshan and my wife and I are starting to think maybe they won’t.

After all, as the old saying goes: they’re not making more land. Not only is Taiwan a tiny little intensely crowded island, but there’s this intense press of people wanting to live in Taipei, and Taipei only has a few limited desirable districts such as those I mentioned, that have nice parks, good shopping/restaurants and shiny new buildings. Songshan’s got the advantage of the airport, too, which is now an international airport with direct flights to China. And the Prez is now opening up land ownership to 1.3 billion PRC citizens (ok, not all of them can afford a place in Taiwan, but there must be a million millionaires over there who can).

Perhaps pressure is easing for people to pay exorbitant sums for a rundown apartment in Chungho, but is it easing up in Hsinyi and Songshan? Even without the PRC issue, there are still way too many Taiwanese people pushing to get into the big city, particularly in the prime areas. When you add PRC investors, I don’t see demand letting up. If supply is fairly static and demand doesn’t ease up, then prices won’t fall, certainly not 40%.

We blew it 5 years ago by not buying our beautiful little place largely because I found it ridiculously expensive, especially when I kept comparing it to the REAL house we could’ve bought in the US for that money, and because I figured we’d move back to the states any day. Of course the value doubled since then and we’re still here, renting. So I’m finally starting to think it might make sense to pay that kind of crazy money for a local place after all.

My above thinking is also influenced by me starting to think maybe we’ll be here for another 5 years or longer after all, and by the great respite in the stock market over the past month, and my company easing up on their mandatory day off plan due to better than expected results, all of which makes me wonder if there really will be global economic crisis through 2009 and into 2010, etc., after all, or are things maybe starting to bottom out after all, and even if they haven’t quite bottomed out it’s still better to pay ones mortgage than to pay ones landlord, especially when one can borrow money for 3 years at 1% interest or whatever.

Moreover, I’ve finally realized it doesn’t make sense for me to consider the beautiful place I could buy back in the states for that kind of money, because I’m not there, I’m here, they’re different markets, and if I would live in it here and it would be a good long-term investment then that’s what really matters.

itakitez: Having more time now, and having reflected on what I wrote, I’d just reiterate it.

Basically, do the sums to see if you would indeed be better paying off the mortgage as soon as possible. Also, don’t get sucked into “upgrading” to a bigger house than you really need. It sounds like it’s the right size already and in the right place for you. It also sounds like you got a good deal for it. Those are three big ticks, so you should be happy with that, for sure. :smiley: Nice one. Just see if you can do even better!

MT: The bit about not comparing prices to back home because it’s a different market really makes sense, as does the idea of going for it if and when you really have decided to put down roots. If I really knew that I would be in Taiwan beyond the next couple of years, I would be looking into buying a place.

What are interest rates like here, especially for locking in a long term rate? I’d be much more likely to go for that than have something that would float after a few years, if that were possible (especially since I think we’re going to hit an inflationary period in a few years, so I expect interest rates to really go up).

I bought our house at what was probably peak pricing, and I have no regrets whatsoever. I didn’t bother doing any research into the purchase as an investment, just as a comfortable place for my family and I to live. If the paper value of our house goes up or down, so what? If the value halves it doesn’t make us half as comfortable.