[quote]We are talking murder, forcible conversion, unfair taxation based on religion, etc. [/quote]What do we do about it? Who’s fault is it? I’m outraged!
Ok, you’ve convinced me Fred, I’m outraged too. What should we do?
Now, you are talking Richardm.
Well, I think that we could start by just expressing concern both at the UN and to the national governments involved. Another nice start would be for multi culti whack jobs to start recognizing that concern not flippant dismissal is in order. I just love reading the foamed outrage when what? 20 to 30 prisoners were involved in an isolate case of abuse at Abu Ghraib but when 300 million Christians are systematically persecuted, it’s “what goes around, comes around” or “Christ urged suffering” or some such nonsense as that.
Rather than think “What would Che Guevara do” why not truly think of what would any decent, morally upright person regardless of religion do. That could be a good starting point even if it does not have the reckless daring glamor of a man who was popular, handsome, charismatic and “felt” things passionately. 
Go to this site, find your state and locality and write to your representative today. You can do the same kind of google search to find your senator, parliamentarian, whatever.
The United Nations can easily be googled as well with contacts for letters BUT I seriously doubt the effort would be worthwhile since the UN has no sovereign power. Write to the governments of China, Pakistan, Egypt, the Palestinian Authority, even Iraq and say that you are concerned and if they expect to be treated well by the West, they had better start living up to a certain level of standards.
Maybe a little off topic. My father was a Native American, my mother poor Oklahoma dirt farmer’s daughter, my wife is from Taiwan and buddhist, my kids are mixed, I’m a Methodist, but I go to a Baptist Church. Does that make me a mult cultural wack job?
On second thought, Fred, before I write to my Congresspersons, I DEMAND PROOF!!! Like Richard, I don’t want to sign up for the Spectator. Please provide us with some other proof of the persecution of 300 million Christians.
If I recall correctly you didn’t believe the survey that found 100,000 civilians were killed in Iraq, despite the fact that it was performed by the highly reputable Johns Hopkins University or something of that nature. And you’ve referred to the NYT as biased.
If your allegation really is true there must be abundant proof. Show us proof to support your 300 million figure. Otherwise, if all you’ve got is one link it’s fair to assume that link is totally lacking in credibility.
Lets see some proof of the 300 million persecuted Christians.
Whether you are a multi-culti wack job, or any othet type of wack job, is determined by your mind… not by your blood.
Thank you Tigerman. I was about ready to persecute myself.
I will write to my congress people, but this is something I would have thought George W. Bush would be on top of. Why is he letting all those Christians be persecuted?
Don’t do that – you’ll grow hair on your palms.
You do not have to “sign up” to the Spectator. And the link is pasted out. You can see what the Spectator wrote. Perhaps, you could ask a moderator to “check” on that for you if you do not believe that the link came from the site and if you are too lazy to register to check that yourself.
It was released one week before the election. It was a study in which the mean (not necessarily the most likely figure) fell at 100,000. That is why I and others disputed the results.
Yes, I believe that it is biased but they do not often print “false facts.” And when they get caught, they suffer as has CBS. The same is certainly equally true with regard to the Spectator.
The Egyptian persecution of the Copts is well documented as is the Palestinian Authority’s persecution of the Christians there. Ditto for the lack of religious freedom in say many Muslim nations like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Libya etc. and the persecution of 70 million Christians in China is well documented. Which figures would you like. How many sites will make you satisfied. You know that you are going to lose on this one so admit it and take it like a man or give me the defined limit of what “proof” is necessary.
[quote]
Lets see some proof of the 300 million persecuted Chri[/quote]stians.
How much do you want? How many sources? Define the limit so that we don’t have a moving bar on this.
[quote]The London Telegraph, for example, published on Oct. 25 a gut-wrenching story about the plight of Christians in Egypt, where some “have been subjected to horrific crucifixion rituals, raped and tortured by the security forces during a crackdown on the ancient Coptic community, according to international human rights and Christian groups.”
“Apart from the crucifixions, teenage girls have been raped and babies as young as three months savagely beaten,” the Telegraph reported. The Egyptian embassy in London refused to comment to the British daily. But Egyptian police had reportedly detained about 1,200 Christians in Al-Kosheh, near Luxor in Upper Egypt during the month of October.
“Seized in groups of 50 at a time, many were nailed to crosses, or manacled to doors with their legs tied together, then beaten and tortured with electric shocks to their genitals, while police denounced them as ‘infidels.’ An 11-year-old boy, Romani Boctor, was hung upside down from an electric ceiling fan and tortured as the fan rotated. Young girls were raped and mothers were forced to lay their babies on the floor of police stations and watch police beat them with sticks,” the Telegraph said.
The Copts, of course, were the original inhabitants of Egypt before the Arab invasions in the seventh century, but have been surrounded for centuries by a hostile Muslim majority. Kind of like the Lebanese Christians, who also used to be a majority (54%) in their country as recently as 1975. Now they are merely an oppressed minority. As for the Copts, they now need a presidential permission even to open a church; their history cannot be taught in schools; and people can be arrested under the (Egyptian) National Security Act for converting to their faith.[/quote]
truthinmedia.org/truthinmedi … t12-27.htm
[quote]The Oregonian is one such example. In late October, this regional West Coast paper ran a five-part series of articles about the persecution of Christians around the world. The stories, written by its staff reporter, Mark O’Keefe, covered Pakistan, Burma, Egypt, Sudan and China.
And then, every once in a while, a decent journalist even within the establishment media gets conscience pangs. is one of them. In his year-end 1997 piece, “A Year of Awakening,” the New York Times columnist, A.M. Rosenthal, was critical of the “Americans of great power and standing, almost all Christian themselves,” for opposing the American Christians’ desire to help the persecuted Christians abroad.
Trouble is that even Mr. Rosenthal limited his outrage only to “half-dozen Muslim countries and China” in his annual soul-searching/cleansing confessional. In other words, his conscience pangs and lamentations were selective, while the persecution of Christians around the world is pervasive. [/quote]
But the most tragic situation
State Dept
I think the US has got it covered. They passed the International Religious Freedom Act in 1998. It identifies the most blatent persecutors and allows for economic sanctions.
Why doesn’t Bush do something!?
Why doesn’t Bush do something!?[/quote]
He is. As are the rest of the Coalition forces.
Thanks for your concern.
Iraq is under control. Good. I still don’t see the point of this thread.
[color=blue]Not supposed to be in the script:[/color]
"It is a paradox that during the Saddam Hussein dictatorship, Iraqi Christians “enjoyed considerable religious freedom,” according to Nimrod Raphaeli, senior analyst with the Middle East Media Research Institute. . .
This is the unreported war in Iraq, a war which will go on until not a single Christian, nor a single Christian church, remains in Iraq. And it is a war supported by Muslim clerics, whether Sunni, Shi’ite, or whatever sect."
[color=blue]In the script:[/color]
“Foreigners should stay out of Iraq.”
Paul Wolfowitz, July, 2003
Persecution of Christians is indefensible of course but it may be that some people feel less compassion for Christians because they have less tolerance for the faith than they used to. It just contains too many contradictions. Asks for too many leaps of faith. Puts forward an unhealthy view of humanity. It is natural that people show more concern for those whoose values are similar to their own, and not many people now believe that we are born sinners and that the only way to salvation is through Jesus. It really is just too insane for most people these days to accept.
I read the whole original article (all it requires is free on-line registration; if you don’t want to use your own info there are plenty of surrogates you can use)
A few scattered comments:
Mostly good, though I’m surprised by the lack of attention to the Sudan, which is the worst hellhole around, and has been for many years.
He does tend to isolate the persecution of Christians in China- every religion in China is persecuted, all religious organisations have to register, and no religious person can rise to a position of power- it’s still officially a Marxist State.
(Ditto for North Korea and Vietnam)
Again, in countries like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, Hindus and Buddhists are subject to just as much oppression as Christians.
It’s ironic that in both Indonesia and Iraq the overthrow of a dictatorship has led to greater persecution of minorities
[quote] Iraqi Christians have historically played an important role in the country. Tariq Aziz, 69, now in coalition custody, and once a familiar face on Western TV, is a Chaldean Catholic. During Saddam’s dictatorship, he was Iraqi foreign minister and later deputy prime minister and at one time was even targeted in an assassination attempt by Iranian Islamic terrorists.
It is a paradox that during the Saddam Hussein dictatorship, Iraqi Christians “enjoyed considerable religious freedom,” according to Nimrod Raphaeli, senior analyst with the Middle East Media Research Institute.[/quote]
(From that Moonie Times article)
[quote]Christians here say they enjoyed as many rights and freedoms as any other Iraqi under Saddam Hussein, who made one of their number, Tariq Aziz, an influential deputy prime minister.
“We enjoyed total religious freedom and there was no religious discrimination” against Christians, said Armenian Archbishop Avak Asadourian.
[/quote]
csmonitor.com/2003/0421/p06s01-wome.html
One of the most pernicious influences has been the use of Saudi money to promote extremist brands of Islam in places like Indonesia that have traditionally been fairly tolerant.
And it’s true that in the cultural relativist, anti-scientific, anti-Enlightenment wing of the Left there has been an bizarrely regressive tendency to tolerate beliefs and policies from non-Western cultures that woud be ivociferously condemned when expressed by Christians or Jews.
Witness Ken Livingstone’s embrace of Muslim cleric al Qaradawi, who makes Jerry Falwell look moderate i.e. advocating wife-beating and murder of homosexuals.
Alas, money and reapolitik too often triumph- Chirac wants to sell weapons to China; Bush sells F16s to Pakistan.
Then there’s stuff like this:
[quote]Even in supposedly Christian Europe, Christianity has become the most mocked religion, its followers treated with public suspicion and derision and sometimes
Nice couple of posts MikeN. I think made the point that there is lots of persecution of many faiths. I also think your interpretation of the Rocco Buttiglione affair is spot on. People who would claim that he has been rejected because he is a Christian really are missing the point.
I will say though that there are a number of posters on this board who seem to have the idea that Christians, in particular, have only ever had a negative influence. This seems to me to be a bit of an over reaction. Take the Catholics for example. Some of the stuff they spout is a bit odd. And no doubt you will point to the paedophile thing. And yes that was bad but I know a good few priests and have done since I was a kid. I was never abused. And I know that they would all have been disgusted and horrified at the actions of a few of their number. The cover up? Inexcusable. However to use that as an excuse to lable all Catholic priests as paedophiles is ridiculous, yet this happens. But what about the good they do? What about people likeCatholic Archbishop Pius Ncube of Bulawayo. What about Sister Dorothy Stang? These are but two recent cases. I believe that the Catholic Church are the biggest providors of health care in the developming world. I think it ios also true that many Catholic priests died for their activities opposing various Latin American juntas. Moving away from Catholics, we can look toward people like Desmond Tutu in Soiuth Africa, and perhaps most pertinently of all to those from the US, Martin Luther King. Many of the same people that celebrate in this great man’s chievements, fail to see the irony when they mock Christians or rant about their evils with no mention of the other side of the story. Strange though it may seem, outside the US (and possibly inside) most Christians are progressive in terms of social justice (check out Jubilee 2000), promoting democracy and human rights and so on, and would seem to make logical bedfellows with many of those who seem to be unable to see anything but bad in Christians.
A slight aside: I admit that I get rather peed off with the ‘God Bless America’ crap that every US poilitician seems to feel duty bound to spout at the end of any speach, but this is more for the fact that it has turned into a cliche and seems to exclude everyone else. The invocation of God or Allah or who ever (apart from fortune tellars - really can’t be doing with them) doesn’t bother me.