[color=red]Mod’s note: I have changed the thread title from “thank you” to something more informative. -DB[/color]
well,i’ll begin with a simple question,but one i had in mind for a long time
xie-xie
as 2 identical words,should be pronounced twice the same,right?
however,when i hear peoples talk,both words aren’t similar at all
they sound more like “she-shiey!”
and the second point is,about this pinyin thing…
why is it written “xie-xie” at all?
the “x” in the english language is pronounced “gzzzz”
as in egzzzzactly
so why a word that shounds like “shee-shiey” written like this in pinyin???
(i bought a book with the most common phrases for traveling,and i had to re-write the phonetics everytime as what’s in pinyin never truly match the right sounds) :s :help:
no matter what transliteration method you chose, there will never be one that exactly matches the sound in English or any other Western language, so its just a help to recognize the sound, you are not supposed to pronounce it like you would in English…
The point is that trying to read romanised Chinese – even if it’s the best approximation possible – like English causes people to horribly mispronounce everything, because the sounds are not part of the English language. The closer it gets to looking like English, the more likely it is that someone is going to try to pronounce it like English.
If you learn the rules of pinyin, you will have no problem reading and pronouncing it correctly, or transcribing what you hear into pinyin.
|EDIT| Besides, pinyin was developed by Chinese people for the purpose of having a phonetic writing system readable by anyone, regardless of the language they speak; so there’s no special reason that it should be based on the English pronunciation of the letters at all.
Pronunciation is paramount, that is true. That’s why you should learn how to pronounce pinyin properly. When an English person learns French, for example, we have to learn that it has different pronunciation rules to our own language - for example you often don’t pronounce the final consonant in a French word.
Pinyin very accurately represents Chinese, if you take the time to learn the system (and it doesn’t take long).
To use your xiexie example - say you transcribe the ‘x’ as ‘sh’. Pinyin already has an ‘sh’ sound which is different to the ‘x’ sound - hence why there are two different initials (‘x’ and ‘sh’) to represent these two different sounds.
The other great thing about pinyin is its consistency - you see something and (if you know the system) then you know exactly how it should be pronounced. There are no ambiguities, unlike English spelling, for example.
dablindfrog, you are making a major mistake by trying to rewrite everything from pinyin. Instead, you should take a the time to learn how to pronounce pinyin. I.e., learn what sounds the letters represent. Take a short class or get a short-term tutor or LE partner for this!
There are various reasons for doing this. One of the most important is that many of the best study materials and dictionaries use pinyin – in fact, it’s really THE international system for Mandarin pronunciation. By taking just a little time to learn it, you’ll be doing yourself a big favor – you will be able to use vast quantities of resources without having to continue this tedious transcription.
Another is that without proper training, you’re likely to be misled by the original pronunciation of the letters and letter combinations you’re using in your transcription. A third is that pinyin keyboard input is one of the most convenient ways to type not only romanized Chinese, but also the Chinese characters themselves.
If you want to go around confusing your brain by using a romanized alphabet system to read madarin…by all means knock yourself out. But, I warn you that you are going to one huge headache at the end of the day.
If you want to read actual chinese characters the way they should be read, then use the MPS system. Learning BPMF may look intimidating at first, but it will stop you from brain reverting back to english pronounciation. Take some time to learn BPMF (most can do it in a week or two) and you will be speaking more correctly.
By the way…the reason why 謝謝 (xieˋ xie) sounds different is not because of the spelling, but because of the tones. It is pronounced 4th tone & 1st tone. This makes the first “xie” quick and sharp in a downward sound and the 2nd “xie” in a monotone drawn out sound.
One of the biggest mistakes we make (as westerners) is adjusting our pitch rather than our tone when we attempt to say the tones. Remember, it doesnt matter what pitch you use. The most important is the tone.
No, it’s perfectly well suited for use by macho men in spandex suits too.
It didn’t confuse me, but some people do appear to have more trouble divorcing their pinyin reading of, say “tan” from the English word, yes. For those people, bopomofo might help them avoid this problem, but pinyin has other advantages. This has all been discussed in the threads before. If you stick to bpmf only, you won’t be able to use excellent resources like the ABCC. Each system has its advantages. No need for name calling!
If you’re serious about Chinese and live in Taiwan, you’ll probably want to eventually learn both. It’s useful for me to know bpmf because the phonetics in my Hanyu Da Zidian (local printing) are in that system, for example.
No, it’s perfectly well suited for use by macho men in spandex suits too.
It didn’t confuse me, but some people do appear to have more trouble divorcing their Pinyin reading of, say “tan” from the English word, yes. For those people, bopomofo might help them avoid this problem, but Pinyin has other advantages. This has all been discussed in the threads before. If you stick to bpmf only, you won’t be able to use excellent resources like the ABCC. Each system has its advantages. No need for name calling!
If you’re serious about Chinese and live in Taiwan, you’ll probably want to eventually learn both. It’s useful for me to know bpmf because the phonetics in my Hanyu Da Zidian (local printing) are in that system, for example.[/quote]
Spandex suits huh? haha
Yeah, for some pinyin works great - for others it brain twists. For me, I prefer both actually. When I have to take quick notes in class, I use pinyin. My hand is just used to writing the roman alphabet more. When I need to make a clarification on definite pronunciation, then I use BPMF. The one thing that irks me the most about pin yin is knowing where to properly put the tone marks, damnit! :fume: I guess it really is easy, I was taught to put the tone (when there is a double vowel) over the vowel that comes first in the english alphabet. (but see, your brain has to quickly revert back to english to get it right) for me, that is too much brain twisting. BPMF has it simple, just stick it on the side.
(Name calling was just for fun, no harm meant or intended.)
Unless you’re producing a textbook, why should it matter over exactly which vowel you put the mark? I just put the mark vaguely over the center of the syllable, and I’m done! (My friend Cranky Laowai will probably rake me over hot coals for saying that! )
Well, actually it’s 4th and neutral, and it should be learned that way. Intonation in actual usage may vary, and sometimes when being emphatic or when saying goodbye to someone, a syllable here or there (such as this one) might get drawn out and end up sounding rather like 1st tone, but that doesn’t make it a 1st tone in essence.
[quote=“dablindfrog”]and the second point is,about this Pinyin thing…
why is it written “xie-xie” at all?[/quote]
Got any better ideas? Wade-Giles uses “hs”.
[quote]the “x” in the English language is pronounced “gzzzz”
as in egzzzzactly[/quote]
Well, “x” is pronounced /ks/ in English. [gz] is merely an allophone of /ks/ that often appears when “x” is flanked by two vowels, the second of which is stressed.
Why should Pinyin be based on English sounds? Chinese is not English. For example, “x” is pronounced “sh” in Portuguese.
Pinyin b, c, ch, d, g, j, q, r, sh, z and zh are not pronounced like their English counterparts either.
I place the tone mark over the vowel that “carries” the syllable. In “zhuang” I would put it over the a, for example. But since there’s one tone per syllable, you could even put it over a consonant and it shouldn’t matter from a purely practical standpoint!
By the way, with reference to another post above, the second “xie” in “xiexie” is not pronouned in the first tone; it’s pronounced in the neutral tone (sometimes denoted as the zeroth tone or the fifth tone).
Yeah, I do that sometimes too, after ordering si2jin3cao3huan4.[/quote]
The Tiapei-ites thought my Taichung dialect to be very cute.
Try ordering a subway in Taipei with a Taichung accent. Stares abound.[/quote]
Heheh. Off-topic, but I love my Taiwan Goyi. When I was back in the UK my job involved a lot of talking to mainlanders - I got a kick out of really laying on the rice-farmer accent. No-one ever needed to ask me where I learnt Mandarin. Li tu huan le mei?
I can do a passable mainland accent when required, but my natural speaking style is much more Taiwanese - although not a thick accent, just less stress on the retroflex (tongue-curling) sounds and never using the ‘r’ ending. It just sounds more pleasing to my ear (probably because it’s the first accent I got lengthy exposure to).
As I wrote in more detail in another thread, the use of X to represent the sound that it does in Mandarin Chinese is derived from the Greek letter chi, which looks like an X. X has likewise been borrowed from Greek to represent sounds the same as or similar to English SH in Portuguese and a few other languages.
Find a Greek person, or, failing that, ask me, and ask them/me to say a Greek word with X (chi) in it, e.g. evcharisto (thank you), christos (Christ) or archidia (testicles) - It sounds pretty similar to the German CH in ich liebe dich and to X in xiexie.
[quote=“derek1978”]Pin Yin is for wusies :raspberry:
If you want to go around confusing your brain by using a romanized alphabet system to read madarin…by all means knock yourself out. But, I warn you that you are going to one huge headache at the end of the day.
If you want to read actual chinese characters the way they should be read, then use the MPS system. Learning BPMF may look intimidating at first, but it will stop you from brain reverting back to English pronounciation. Take some time to learn BPMF (most can do it in a week or two) and you will be speaking more correctly.[/quote]
Absolute nonsense. Utter and complete poppycock. Where do people get these ideas? Honestly? And why do well-educated, otherwise sensible Westerners buy this claptrap?
haha
(My friend Cranky Laowai will probably rake me over hot coals for saying that! 