[quote=“steelersman”][quote=“Ducked”]If a woman breaks up with a man its because the man wasn’t good enough.
If a man breaks up with a woman…ditto.[/quote]
Too logical for women![/quote]
Not really. Maybe the ditto, (and the differently nuanced meanings of “good”) makes it a bit obsure though 
If a woman breaks up with a man its because the man wasn’t good enough.
If a man breaks up with a woman its because the man wasn’t good enough.
Is the dead horse any better for its flogging?
How would I tell?
I had one run about 12 years. Does that make it a “success”, or a bigger failure than one that ran for a year?
Certainly felt like the latter at the end, and for a long time after.
[quote=“GuyInTaiwan”]Petrichor: I am pretty happy with my marriage.
I think people mistake me for a misogynist. I’m not. My misogyny is actually merely a subset of my greater misanthropy. I don’t like to discriminate. 
[/quote]
Check 
That exact same argument is used to justify/excuse all kinds of prejudice and discrimination. I’m referring to dissing men too. Such attitudes and language is only seen for what it is with hindsight. You only need to look back to the seventies to be quite shocked at some of the discourse about women and black people (for example) yet at the time it was seen as normal, only ‘fun’. I realise I’m coming over all heavy here. I just wanted to state my observation. Take it or leave it.
Going back to the OP who gave this thread/ topic the title it has…
Given that this BBS is frequented to the most part by people who are both foreigners and males, the conclusion is already in the question:
The blame is “always” on the foreign guy because “all” that foreign guys can see is themselves. 
In general: to get useful information, one may want to start with a useful question. 
yuli: Female Taiwanese aren’t constrained by only being able to see themselves? That’s simply a reworking of the Original Sin/Original Virtue dichotomy.
mmm … not really. I was specifically referring only to the war of the sexes, which will continue for as long as there are men and women; and since we both need each other (and basically like each other) it’s not going to descend into them-and-us massacres. I don’t think there’s any parallel to be drawn with racist or nationalist behaviour. Sexual politics is a whole different, um, ball game.
You can pretend otherwise, but men and women do look at the world in different ways, and I think teasing each other about it is better than getting militant about it, because that’s when people stop talking, stop trying to understand, and start getting resentful instead. Everyone loses. Just my observation 
I bet you do too. :roflmao: I’ve been married for 6 years 
But before marriage? Hell no. I’ve never been much to look at but I’ve got a life force/magnetism that has been irresistible on many continents and in many boudoirs 
They used to call me Lord Sanchez.
I like that. Well put. 
[quote=“finley”][quote=“Petrichor”]
You can pretend otherwise, but men and women do look at the world in different ways, and I think teasing each other about it is better than getting militant about it, because that’s when people stop talking, stop trying to understand, and start getting resentful instead. Everyone loses. Just my observation [/quote][/quote]
Who’s getting militant?? :s Anyway, the language we use does hugely affect the way we see things and how we interact. As soon as you start using terms like ‘you always…’ ‘you never…’, sweeping generalisations about another person, you’re on a loser. It’s a dead end street. So debating relationship and dating issues in terms of ‘all women do this’ or ‘all men are like that’ is pointless. It seems to me most people on this forum are pretty interesting otherwise, so I guess it kind of irks me. FWIW I thought you hit the nail on the head with this
It’s been mentioned before - a lot of guys who come to Taiwan suddenly find they’re getting more attention that they did at home, and it goes to their head (or whatever). The ones who will only be here for a year or two, and have NO plans to stay (that is, the ones who don’t really like being here and are just earning some pocket money) want some temporary company - who can blame them? - but perhaps they don’t make that clear enough to the girls concerned, or perhaps the girls think they can “change their minds”. Either way, it’s in the nature of an expat population that people (ahem) come and go. But that leaves a bad impression, and those of who actually live here get tarred with the same brush.
As to differences between men and women, the differences between two individuals of one sex are far greater than the differences between the sexes generally. You can’t explain an individual’s behaviour in terms of their sex, nor extrapolate from one person’s behaviour to their sex generally.
I agree men and women have always teased each other and perhaps they always will. The problem with teasing is that the person who defines it as such is mostly the person doing it, not the person on the other end. To the person on the other end teasing can be bullying, harrassment, prejudice, discrimination, whatever. Where’s the line where it stops being teasing and starts being something else? It depends on which side you’re sitting. Over the decades all minority groups have been ‘teased’ and told they should lighten up - don’t take those Paki jokes so seriously, we’re only having a laugh! When I read a comment starting ‘women are all…’ I don’t think, oh that guy’s such a tease! I think, what a boring tosser, here we go again. When you read ‘men are all…’ do you think - wow, I bet there’s really funny comment coming up!? There seem to have been plenty of men on this thread objecting to generalisations being made about foreign men in Taiwan.
I am surprised that this topic took so many pages…I don’t see any problem. 
I was taught that it is always men’s fault. No matter what race, nationality they are. It is simple as this. Woman is always right and dear OP just get use to it and life will be easier for you 
I made/make no mention of anything to that effect, since i was/am not talking about people whose voices are pretty well non-existent on this BBS. 
yuli: There are plenty of women on this BBS, including some mods. If women want to be “heard” on here, no one is stopping them. Do the mods gang up on women and censor their posts?
If you think it’s because women get hounded away, I think whatever women put up with in general here is nothing compared to what happens in International Politics. Everyone hounds the crap out of everyone else there and it’s all fair in love and war. People say things that others consider stupid, and they get called on it, or even just teased generally. Six months ago, it was pretty hard for anyone on the right wing of politics at this site and they did get ganged up on by certain mods.
Whatever “plenty” means in context.
Anyway, how many Taiwanese women are actively posting on this BBS and giving their views on relationship matters?
Well, er, interesting proposal… how is that related to what i wrote?? 
yuli: There are some Taiwanese females at this site, though I can’t remember their names, which is probably your point. Anyway, anyone is welcome to write here. You know as well as I do that the Pareto Principle probably holds at this site, so probably the top twenty posters here contribute the lion’s share of the posts. Regardless, just because a particular person posts a lot, that does not necessarily have anything to do with other people not posting. Should the top posters in this thread, forum, or site go and round up some Taiwanese females and coerce them to post, just so we can have some balance?
Anyway, you also know that people, or groups thereof, don’t necessarily need to post anything on this particular site for it to be heard on this site. If people want to know what Taiwanese women think about all this and the Taiwanese women won’t post, then people can always go out and ask the Taiwanese women.
What frustrates me about your original point about men only seeing themselves is that it’s essentially a meaningless point. Yeah, they do. So what? So does everyone. However, when it is pointed out that so does everyone, you respond that we’re not talking about everyone, only the men. Yet we are talking about everyone, or at least two parties. It’s a really slippery point to make because you’ve set certain terms such that there is really no effective retort to be made. Indeed, there’s no conversation to be had at all.
[quote=“GuyInTaiwan”]yuli: There are plenty of women on this BBS, including some mods. If women want to be “heard” on here, no one is stopping them. Do the mods gang up on women and censor their posts?
If you think it’s because women get hounded away, I think whatever women put up with in general here is nothing compared to what happens in International Politics. Everyone hounds the crap out of everyone else there and it’s all fair in love and war. People say things that others consider stupid, and they get called on it, or even just teased generally. Six months ago, it was pretty hard for anyone on the right wing of politics at this site and they did get ganged up on by certain mods.[/quote]
You would never get away with the kind of unfounded, biased statements that are routinely made against women on this board in IP. Consider – in IP, one says things like “Obama is great/awful”. When talking about women on this board, people say things like “All women are crazy”. One is talking about a public figure in the 3rd person, the other directly includes the actual people on this board. Now take that statement and put nine or ten hail-fellow-well-met “oh yeah dude” responses after it, and see how many women are going to take the time or have the inclination to offer any real discourse.
In effect, the mods don’t have to gang up on women and censor their posts. The posters do it for them. But this is a discussion that happens here about every 6-8 months on average. Search and ye shall find.
ironlady: People do make all sorts of crazy statements in IP, or did until the recent change in moderators. Certain posters pretty much used to have carte blanche to say that all Republicans are evil. Certain posters are still saying that everyone on Wall Street is greedy and immoral.
In general, on the site, people make all sorts of blanket comments about Taiwanese people, recruiters, big chain buxibans, buxiban laobans, Taiwanese businessmen in general, kindergarten teachers, Taiwanese university students, politicians (both Taiwanese and non-Taiwanese), Christians, and probably a million other groups of people. Yes, people say that women are all crazy, but they also say that men are all horn dogs. Some people on this website may or may not fall into any of the above groups. Why not clamp down on all of these cases then?
OK, i will translate: the question “why is the blame always on the (foreign) guy?” contains the assertion that it is “always” foreign guys who get blamed for relationship troubles. Given that the question is asked (or, rather this assertion is made) within a group where close to everybody appears to think the same way about this matter, the whole “discussion” here is “essentially meaningless”.
Ever heard the expression “loaded question”?
I had originally written:
Imagine a forum in some other universe where a poster were to ask “Why are western guys in Taiwan such idiots?” Don’t you know right away that there is something fundamentally wrong with that question? And don’t you know the same when it comes to the question that has become the title of this thread?
Here is a rather famous illustration ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question ) of this kind question: “So… have you stopped beating your wife, Mr. Smith?” (directed at a Mr. Smith who has not beaten his wife). Duh.
Not so - ever heard of “empathy”, for example?
So you know what it feels like being frustrated and have your voice effectively removed.
Now imagine i was a Taiwanese women who read the BS that flows through D&R every day - can you imagine how she might feel?
A question that has not been posted to this BBS yet: “Why are western guys in Taiwan such idiots?” - would you suggest we should post it?
I thought so…!
Yuli: You’re assuming I would disagree with that question or contest its answer. Western guys in Taiwan are idiots on a whole lot of levels. Firstly, in the general sense, as I said, I’m a misanthrope and I believe that human beings are, for the most part, most of the time, irrational. Secondly, in the specific sense, I believe Western guys in Taiwan are idiots because they continually set themselves up for misery by choosing women who give them grief. It seems like there’s a defeatist kind of attitude towards amongst a lot of men here towards not only Taiwanese women, but women in general. There seem to be plenty of guys here who think their girlfriend or wife is always going to have the upper hand, even if she is wrong, and that’s just how it is, so the guys will just have to go and sulk in the corner. In this situation, I actually don’t think it’s the women who are crazy, I think it’s the men because they’re so bloody pathetic. Either that or the men secretly like it that way. I don’t know, I’ve just never really understood people who won’t stand up for themselves. Maybe it brings them more peace while I constantly rage against everything and everyone around me in life. I take the approach though that if a woman, or anyone else for that matter, is domineering, crazy and stubborn, then that’s only because I’ve allowed that person to be.
Anyway, you think the question of this thread is the wrong question to ask. I’m not sure what kind of questions you would like people to ask then. What question would you ask of people on this topic?
My voice hasn’t been effectively removed. I can – and am – still discussing this with you. Likewise, your voice hasn’t been removed. You said what you wanted to say, even if not everyone else replied to it, cared for it, or even read it. The people whose voices have been removed are those who surrendered their voices voluntarily. I just thought that what you wrote was effectively a conversation stopper. If we applied that kind of approach here at Forumosa generally, there’d be about six active threads per week.
Playing with double meaning: i am pretty aware of your (GiT’s) views - and then “you” has a second meaning.
Anyway, thanks for the thoughtful reply…
I’d say “insecure”, not “defeatist”, but that’s just me…
Yeah, that seems to be the case - although i have no idea how often that is said in jest. In any case, competition and control within pair relationships are, in my experience, bigger issues in some cultures than in others, so i am not surprised that these issues hould come up here on this BBS.
Yes, but that does not mean that i think people should ask “right questions” - it’s only advice: “if you really want to figure out how relationships work (= you want some new information) then you need to ask better questions (because loaded questions are particularly ineffective as tools for finding new information)” - this has to do with my (charitable) assumption that people posting questions to the BBS are most of the time, indeed, looking for some information but just have some blinders here or there that are in the way (in this context i say to others only what i say to myself: i may not be able to avoid being ignorant, but at least there is a cure).
(And a less charitable interpretation is that this all is just venting. )
Of course, you are a guy on what is essentially a guys’ forum, so i wouldn’t really expect you to be silenced, but i was hoping your frustration would alert you to the kinds of frustration Taiwanese women might experience if they had to read D&R every day…
Not to worry, nothing i do here will stop that flow - it flows in many, many similar channels already:
Stupid Sh*t My Taiwanese Girlfriend Says , which points to stupid-shit-my-taiwanese-gf-says.blogspot.com/ (worth reading carefully and then thinking for at least a second or two, “what do [emphasis]I[/emphasis] really know about how the world works?” and “what does it say about me if i am in a pair relationship with a person whom i expose in public as the author of a lot of “stupid” things?”. Lots of layers of meaning one can find here…
Anyway, sorry to get all philosophical here, that’s just an affliction that breaks throught once in a while.