[quote=“hexuan”]
But what good does it do ? Let’s say Taiwan is recognised tomorrow. What difference will it make…Some people will have a little warm feeling in their tummies, that’s all.[/quote]
And that’s unimportant? How about our rights for self-determination instead always letting other people decide who we belong to?
[quote=“steve101”][quote=“hexuan”]
But what good does it do ? Let’s say Taiwan is recognised tomorrow. What difference will it make…Some people will have a little warm feeling in their tummies, that’s all.[/quote]
And that’s unimportant? How about our rights for self-determination instead always letting other people decide who we belong to?[/quote]
You’re right. I’m being too much of a devil’s advocate here, and coming over like a right bastard. But it’s just an online persona…
The unfortunate thing about self-determination is that is sometimes impossible to define. The Taiwanese here have set up a strong economy (which I think is in danger of being undermined) and a society in which it is safe to live and people can more or less go about their daily business without fear. I think, or at least like to think, that the rest of the world recognises their achievements and it is clear to all that this island’s success makes the PRC lose face (if it has any face left to lose). Have they not done very well already in the absence of any “right to self-determination” ? Is it worth forcing the issue on sovereignty ? Isn’t there a danger that the economy is going to be sacrificed for a political statement of very dubious benefit ?
Taiwan is economically dependent on China and politically dependent on the USA. What is going to happen if the US and China get together and agree that Taiwan is pushing the envelope too far with regard to independence ? Who will benefit ?
And one day the US may not need Taiwan as a stick to beat China with. The US would much rather be friends with China than fall out over Taiwan. The day will come when Taiwan will be too costly an impediment to Sino-US relations and it will be quietly abandoned. A dastardly betrayal but that’s politics.
The reason I am so infuriated by those Taiwanese politicians who bang on about “nationalism” etc, is not that I am some sort of commie, it’s because those that do so are simply ignoring the real issues and playing to the lowest common denominator. These politicians care deeply about the Taiwanese people ? Right. They’ll say any shit no matter how offensive or divisive just to get on telly. “Babies born to foreign women are retards” was one of my favourites. But I also like the constant news stories about how a tiny tiny number of mainland women working here as prostitutes is causing the very fabric of society to be rent asunder. Christ, this place must have been Heaven on Earth before they let that lot in. Come on, please, there are far more important issues that could be usefully dealt with. Society in other countries where they actually have immigrants doesn’t just get suspended because some foreign tart gets caught with her drawers down.
Very few people I have met actually care that much about whether Taiwan is a sovereign nation or a US protectorate, or actually part of China. Yes, they have an opinion often a firm one, but they are far more worried about their jobs, their kids’ education, and health care. If they really were so uptight about the exact status in international law of this island there’d be a political party devoted to it with millions of followers. What have we got - the DPP. A political party with a politically impossible target supported by people whose only thoughts are about how much they hate “Chinese” people, and run by a respectable lawyer (who’s doing the best he can under the circumstances) and a mental midget with dnagerously racist tendencies.
Nothing gets done in parliament on this island because politicians would rather fight about the emotive but ultimately incapable of definition issue of “are we Chinese or are we Taiwanese” ? * Much better fun than reforming the police, or jian bao system which is on the verge of collapse. To hell with sorting out building controls, or electrical safety issues which have killed far more people than those pesky commies.
I repeat: the commies aren’t coming. If they were going to come they’d have done it in the 50s or 60s. Why didn;t they? Because on that “jiefang Taiwan” bollocks was for domestic PRC consumption, just like all this anti-Taiwan bullshit they come out with now. I think the PRC knows the US would intervene, and given its recent mood, I now reckon the USA would intervene. I would like to think other democratic countries would support America in this, but I think it is simply not going to happen.
So if the commies aren’t coming why not simply get on with channelling nationalism into positive areas like “let’s build a better Taiwan fit for us all to live in”.
This place could be a model of Chinese democracy and self-government. Instead it’s a dump that people can’t wait to leave. Not me - I didn’t say that, I am staying, job permitting - but I know plenty of Taiwanese people who dislike the lack of community spirit and the spirit of selfishness here. Fifty years of unrestrained capaitalism is enough, Taiwan needs a little bit of socialism now IMHO.
I choose not to answer any personal questions. I prefer to just stick to the topics.
Ive read some of your posts and youre the last person that should be throwing stones about demonizing any particular ethnic group.
As I gave examples in my previous post, the PRC has always maintained that either Taiwan accept “One-China” first or they say it is an internal(domestic) matter. This is an unacceptable precondition that violates the sovereignty of Taiwan. (extremely hard position)
Actually, this is not true. The current president of Taiwan has said that anything is on the table even reunification as long as Beijing doesn`t attach any humiliating preconditions. (very soft and reasonable position)
This is due exclusively to Beijing`s obstinate insistence that Taiwan first surrender.
That`s what happens if you first surrender your sovereignty.
Agreed, but the hawks in Beijing are attaching unnecessary preconditions. I was expecting a lot more magnanimous approach from the Wen/Hu team, but the rightwingers propped up by Jiang Zemin wield a lot of influence.
Barring, the use of force, that`s probably true.
A precondition free approach would be best.
Look at your 3 quotes. They basically illustrate the fact that it is based on half-truths. Find me the agreement that for negotiations to begin on the 3 links that Taiwan has to first surrender. This is all a figment of your over active imagination. Nowhere in any document has the PRC ask us to surrender prior to 3 link negotiations.
First off the “One China” concept is not just a PRC concept. ROC also supported the “One China” concept when it was in our favor. Most of the major countries on this planet support the “One China” policy. Show me the evidence that if Taiwan went back and supported the “One China” policy, we would be a colony of the PRC. When we did support the “One China” policy we were not a colony of the PRC from 1949 to 2004.
How is using a vague term like “humiliating” in international language a soft position, a position of compromise. It basically means that the person issuing the statement has final say on what constitute “humiliating.” That’s not the most effective approach to begin negotiations.
It’s a stalling technique, like what NK always uses all the time with the USA. Oh my glass of water has less water than yours, that’s “humiliating,” I’m ending talks until this is resolved.
hexuan,
I see you have several points to your stance.
The thing is that the issues are very problematical but by just ignoring it would not make it go away. China won’t go away either and they are gaining more confidence for pushing the unification issue as their economy grows. I do not think that the security of our nation’s sovereignty is just a political statements of very dubious benefits.
First and foremost there is a missile build up across the strait. We do not have a good solutions in defending against those missiles. The rate of these missile build ups increases annually, from 75 missiles a year, 100, then 150 a year. These are not something that we can just ignore.
Second, we have to keep a good relations with the U.S without compromising our positions. The best way to accomplish this is through the democratic process. Since President Chen is re-elected to his second term in office. It puts pressure on the U.S to reconsider the real possibilities in changing their One-China policy. If we do not establish our positions internationally then we face the danger of being sellout by the U.S one day if they find the cost of supporting us too high in the future.
Third, the political fights in Taiwan is largely due to the past colonial style ruling by the previous regime. They tried everything they could to cripple the new government. The democracy in Taiwan is still young and needs many improvements, you can not expect it to change overnight. There are issues more important than just the economy that we have to worry about at the present.
Oh, come on Hexuan. I know you know this issue better than you are letting on. Since the late 1970s, Beijing has said that there are three things that would automatically trigger military action against Taiwan. The first is a declaration of independence. The second is for foreign troops to be stationed on Taiwan or other territories governed from Taipei. The third is if Taiwan were to try to develop nuclear weapons.
Ignoring the domestic and international political problems that would come from Taiwan developing nuclear weapons and just looking at it from a military point of view, nuclear weapons are the only long-term solution for maintaining Taiwan’s de facto independence. I am more optimistic than most about Taiwan’s present ability to defend itself, but the fact remains that the technological gap is narrowing. What could only have been done twenty years ago with huge amphibious assaults could possibly be done today with shock special force/terrorist action followed immediately by waves of missile attacks to prepare the way for the larger invasion. The only 100% effective deterent against a PRC attack is nukes and the PRC has long known that. If he US had not forced the ROC to give up its nuclear program decades ago, PRC military action would now be next to impossible. That chance for the ROC has long since passed. Taipei could have developed nukes in the 1970s and Beijing wouldn’t have known about it until it was too late. With the surveilance capabilities that the PRC now has, it would be impossible for Taipei to put any nukes and delivery systems together without Beijing knowing what was going on long before such systems are ready for use. The USSR or France 
never said that any attempt by the UK to develop a nuclear deterent would trigger immediate war.
That wasn’t meant to be an insult at all. I apologize for giving you the impression that I thought you were somehow pro-Beijing because of where your wife is from. The reason I referred to your wife’s country of birth is because you have written in other threads about the hassle and prejudice you have had to deal with when trying to get legal status for your wife in the ROC. A person in your situation would have to have Gandhian levels of tolerance to not hold a grudge against the ROC government and Taiwanese people for the prejudice your wife has had to put up with. I know a bit about it myself. My wife, though a HK resident since the age of four, was born on the mainland. She has been detained and interrogated four times upon landing at CKS.
[quote=“hexuan”]They haven’t got any sovereignty to give up.
[/quote]I disagree. The ROC on Taiwan has sovereignty, though who knows for how long. What it lacks is recognition. Sovereignty and recognition are not the same.
Thanks for your clarification, Jive Turkey.
My motivation for what I write on this is that I am afraid the Taiwanese are going to throw away the economic advantage they have built up in the years since the KMT landed. I would very much like to see the emergence of a new economy here which is based on research and development, and the provision of services, which would lesson the reliance on the current model of cheap manufacturing done in China.
I hope that Taiwanese nationalists will come to the conclusion that the best way forward is to build a country that people want to live in and not just to make money for the ticket to America. I think this is possible.
The China question is not one that can be solved in a short period of time, and no-one knows this better than than Chinese and Taiwanese people who having studied their own history know that cycles of change take much longer than they have in the West. Of course they need no lecture on this from the likes of me.
A domestic nuclear deterrent would certainly be a powerful weapon in the armoury against China. However the escalation in tension that would result from China discovering the development of nuclear weapons here may set relations on such a dreadful footing that Taiwan is forever deprived of any share in China’s economic growth. I realise economics isn’t everything, but I feel it is Taiwan’s strongest card at the moment.
I fear that Taiwan will become irrelevant as China grows and the West continues its shameful sychophancy. I beleive the only way forward is an economically strong Taiwan with a cohesive social system which does not develop into a one country three statuses of “Taiwanese”, “Chinese”, “Aboriginals”.
I do think it was right at the beginning of the nineties to allow direct investment in China. It was happening anyway via Bermuda and the British Virgin Islands. But the source of Taiwan’s wealth over the last 15 years is in danger of becoming the source of its economic destruction - the island is now dependent on China. However I get the impression that is because it was easiest. Many companies here now realise they are overly dependent on their Chinese operations and are diversifiying into other Asian countries such as Thailand and Vietnam.
Despite their wish to emphasise that China is a foreign country, which it clearly is, many nationalists are defeating their own cause by focussing too much on the China issue, in effect domesticating it. China’s treatment of Taiwan is of course indefensible, but the Taiwan cause would be better served by focussing more closely on domestic social issues and links with the rest of Asia, in whatever form they can take. With a strong economy it will be much easier to forge strong lasting links with Asia than as an impoverished but self-consciously righteous island off the coast of China.
With regard to the nucleart weapons issue:
I understand what you’re saying. It’s very hard for me to actually discern what would really cause the PRC to invade. They’ve been talking about “liberating” Taiwan for so long now it’s just so much hot air. A paper tiger, indeed.
What do you think would cause the PRC to invade ?
Steve:
I don’t think the sovereignty issue is capable of meaningful resolution. There are three options: Taiwan is US unincorporated territory; Taiwan is part of China; Taiwan is a sovereign independent nation. None of those options are going to solve the issue, merely create bigger, worse ones.
I imagine it is possible a time might come when 51% of people here go, fuck it, we are independent, let’s say so, and to hell with the consequences. Would it be right to visit those horrendous consequences on the 49%, or do you believe the consequences would not be horrendous at all, and that it would work ? I am of the opinion it would be a disaster, but I have nothing but gut feeling to back that up.
steve101,
Obviously the ROC will not win an escalating weapon build up against the PRC. And the price of defensive measure is huge, as with the recent USA package has shown. I believe we need to pursue a diplomatic solution to the weapon build up, instead of trying to engage in a tit-for-tat strategy with the PRC.
During the height of the Cold War this was simple to do. As long as we kept the PRC as the “enemy” we were “friends” of Washington. However, USA has realigned their policy with PRC since 1979. So to keep our “friend” status we need to also concede to the USA in areas that may not be in our best interest.
As you mention there is a certain sense of immaturity and lack of control in many aspects of ROC political culture. This becomes an issue in and of itself on Taiwan. And saps away important resources to deal with “real” issues in Taiwan.
ac_dropout:
What would you say to the PRC regarding the 500 or so ballistic missiles aimed at Taiwan?
I choose not to answer any personal questions. I prefer to just stick to the topics.[/quote]
I’ll take that to mean no.
There is no sovereignty of Taiwan. Taiwan is not a sovereign country. It is not recognized by the majority of the world to be a country, and it does not recognize itself to be a country apart from China. The official name, Republic of China clearly represents that.
Really? The current president seems quite on the road to independence. In an interview with BBC in March, he clearly states what he thinks of Taiwan, which is Taiwan is an independent sovereign nation and all that other crap.
Here are some quotes from that interview:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3582853.stm
Taiwan has no sovereignty. It is not any of the following:
I think that Taiwan is forced into this “arms race” by the PRC. There is no way out for Taiwan unless Taiwan submits to the PRC thinking. Until Taiwan re-unifies with the PRC, there is no guarantee that Taiwan will not go back to its current status, and the PRC knows that. Result = 500 missiles.
There is no diplomatic solution with the exception of re-unification. China will not back down until Taiwan has submitted. Therefore, Taiwan will be forced to play this costly arms race to maintain their current de facto independence.
All the invading threats is just enormous pressure on the Taiwan party to submit. If Taiwan does not, and the PRC continues to grow at this rate, those threats are going to become reality.
I don’t think the people would be so willing to take a chance with their homes burning down.
Yes, it is a long term solution. But, this would be the cause of a possible invasion, or a nuclear arms race that would threaten the stability of South East Asia. Taiwan would be the cause of it. The world would be forced to take a stance with the PRC and impose severe consequences for Taiwan.
[quote]Taiwan has no sovereignty. It is not any of the following:
Complete independence and self-government.
A territory existing as an independent state. [/quote]
Yes it does. It is independent and self-governing. Who do you think governs it?
Yes, it has a defined territory which exists as an independent state.
You quite obviously have no idea what you are talking about.
Brian
Brian that is what I thought too…
But apparently according to some treaties and conventions Taiwan is not a sovereign country and therefore has no sovereignity.
You see, apparently, after WWII when the Japanese gave up Taiwan, they signed a treaty. Although the Japanese gave up control of Taiwan, the treaty didn’t exactly specify to whom the Japanese gave Taiwan up to. So, Taiwan’s sovereignity was held in trust by the US, but the US never gave sovereignity back to ROC or PRC. So basically Taiwan has control over a territory in which it has no sovereignity. At least that’s how I undersand it.
Now, another theory that I’ve also heard is that - Taiwan in fact still claims to have sovereignity over China and this creates a problem because since Taiwan obvious has no control over China, therefore it doesn’t have control over most of the territories that it claims to have sovereignity. Now, according to some… international law(?) if a nation doesn’t have control over most of the territories that it claims to have sovereignity, then it is not considered to be a sovereign nation.
In terms of international law you can choose your presecription method (Montevideo Convention) or the recognition theory.
Neither really helps in this case because no parties are going to submit the thing to any court so it’s all just theorising.
Just because there are no treaties deciding, transferring or acknowledging sovereignty does not mean that sovereignty does not exist.
Sovereignty, when applied to a nation, means the qualities of independence (and again jsut because there is no declaration of independence does not mean that independence does not exist) and self-government. Taiwan has these qualities, therefore it is sovereign.
Brian
You are confusing sovereignty with effective territorial control. The two are not the same.
You are confusing sovereignty with effective territorial control. The two are not the same.[/quote]
When did the United Kingdom formally declare independence, sheepdip? You don’t need a piece of paper to be a sovereign nation.