Wikileaks have released 400 000 documents concerning Iraq. warlogs.wikileaks.org/
Torture, civilian death tolls, executions etc.
Discuss.
I saw that this morning. My response was “only 100000?”
Bush is no Pol Pot or Hitler. Now, if that number of civilian deaths were 100 million, or even six million, or even two million, we could talk. But 100,000. Drop in the bucket. Pffft.
[quote=“Chuanzao El Ale Destroyer”]I saw that this morning. My response was “only 100000?”
Bush is no Pol Pot or Hitler. Now, if that number of civilian deaths were 100 million, or even six million, or even two million, we could talk. But 100,000. Drop in the bucket. Pffft.[/quote]
Now, would you be saying the same if it had been Canada that was behind it? Or if the civilians weren’t Muslims?
Whatever your views on the Iraq war, the number of civilians deaths sounds pretty high if that news is accurate. Surely, the point is to minimize deaths of those not involved right?
The truth of the matter is that the civilian death toll is probably far higher. They always suffer the most in any conflict, most especially that involving urban areas.
Obama may have some diplomatic difficulties not looking backwards this time. Spiegel is going all out - even using a picture of a screaming little girl wearing her parents’ blood.
Sticking to English though… Reuters quotes DoD reaction:[quote]“We deplore WikiLeaks for inducing individuals to break the law, leak classified documents and then cavalierly share that secret information with the world,” Geoff Morrell, Pentagon press secretary, said.[/quote]…which tacitly means, “We on the other hand encourage inducing individuals to kill and destroy without conscience, lying about documented horrors of war and then cavalierly sharing false information with the world.”
This leak happened just in time for some juicy questions to grill candidates about. Like how the collateral murder video prompted Ethan McCord to come out with heart wrenching testimony, there’s bound to be more than a few upset soldiers and families confronting their politicians soon (besides Casey Sheehan’s mom). Let’s see if any of the 3 (GOP/Tea/Dem) ‘representative parties/movements’ even hint at wanting “accountability”. My guess, not unless town halls get ugly again.
Pentagon response to publication of the war logs
And 109,000 KIA (edit 66,000 civilian) = “drop in the bucket”? Not comparing to 2,977 obviously.
[quote=“Funk500”][quote=“Chuanzao El Ale Destroyer”]I saw that this morning. My response was “only 100000?”
Bush is no Pol Pot or Hitler. Now, if that number of civilian deaths were 100 million, or even six million, or even two million, we could talk. But 100,000. Drop in the bucket. Pffft.[/quote]
Now, would you be saying the same if it had been Canada that was behind it? Or if the civilians weren’t Muslims?
Whatever your views on the Iraq war, the number of civilians deaths sounds pretty high if that news is accurate. Surely, the point is to minimize deaths of those not involved right?[/quote]
I’d say the same.
Every death is a tragedy, but…
There are always wars going on somewhere or another in the world. Wars, massacres, genocides. There will always be wars happening here and there, sad as that is. Check out what’s happening in the Congo right now: 3.8 MILLION dead between 1998 and 2004. Only six years, and 38 times as many deaths as in Iraq. I’m not fired up about the Congo, and judging from the lack of Congo threads on F.Com, nobody else is either.
So, What I am saying is that 100,000 civilian casualties is actually a low number of civilian casualties compares to many other wars. Especially over a span of seven years.
And Ginger Man, you are right, I’m surprised it isn’t higher.
[quote=“j.scholl”]Obama may have some diplomatic difficulties not looking backwards this time. Spiegel is going all out - even using a picture of a screaming little girl wearing her parents’ blood.
Sticking to English though… Reuters quotes DoD reaction:[quote]“We deplore WikiLeaks for inducing individuals to break the law, leak classified documents and then cavalierly share that secret information with the world,” Geoff Morrell, Pentagon press secretary, said.[/quote]…which tacitly means, “We on the other hand encourage inducing individuals to kill and destroy without conscience, lying about documented horrors of war and then cavalierly sharing false information with the world.”
This leak happened just in time for some juicy questions to grill candidates about. Like how the collateral murder video prompted Ethan McCord to come out with heart wrenching testimony, there’s bound to be more than a few upset soldiers and families confronting their politicians soon (besides Casey Sheehan’s mom). Let’s see if any of the 3 (GOP/Tea/Dem) ‘representative parties/movements’ even hint at wanting “accountability”. My guess, not unless town halls get ugly again.
Pentagon response to publication of the war logs
And 109,000 KIA (edit 66,000 civilian) = “drop in the bucket”? Not comparing to 2,977 obviously.[/quote]
Which war killed 2977 people?
You should look up wars and civilian casualty statistics sometime.
He means that 911 killed almost 3,000, but 100,000 is a drop in the bucket?
Oh, yes, 9/11 and J.Scholl. How could I forget?
The Congo, Ethiopia, Pol Pot, and every major battle in WWI and WWII DO make 100,000 seem light by comparison. 100,000 is less than Hiroshima even. The Rwandan genocide killed 800,000 people in less than a hundred days.
I didn’t you say you were incorrect - by comparing greater death tolls, yes 100k seems light. It was your “Pffft” that just seemed questionably sad from another perspective, because unfortunately many people still believe those deaths were actually justified (bummer I know, Dr McCoy).
Meanwhile Bush says his biggest regret was not privatizing social security. What an a-hole.
Well if the number is only 100k, I guess Bush is responsible for saving countless Iraqis since it is estimated that Saddam killed 500k-1.5 million.
I think there’s a job for some of you in the Taiwan judicial system.
In Hillary Clinton’s strong opinion, “We should condemn in the most clear terms any official knowledge of torture and maltreatment of detainees.”
No she didn’t really say that, but it might have been sufficient reason to consider voting Democrat.
Obama administration handed over detainees despite reports of torture
How quickly a bit of public data arouses concern.
UN calls for US to investigate torture claims revealed in leaked reports
Btw, “As many as 285,000 people have been killed” in Iraq since we - the coalition of the willing to be duped - invaded. So 109K may be shy.
And in video game-like fashion, the reports reveal… Iraqi civilians used as minesweepers by a US soldier
I didn’t you say you were incorrect - by comparing greater death tolls, yes 100k seems light. It was your “Pffft” that just seemed questionably sad from another perspective, because unfortunately many people still believe those deaths were actually justified (bummer I know, Dr McCoy).[/quote]
I hate to break it to you J. Scholl, but you need a reality check. I don’t disagree that “many people still believe those deaths were actually justified”, as you say. But I think you should consider that most people have moved on from talking about 9/11 and have put it behind them. Outside of your conspiracy websites where people who believe in aliens, the hollow earth theory, and reptiles taken over the planet, and are still talking about 9/11, the vast majority of people have moved on and are no longer interested.
There will be no war crimes trial for Bush, there will be no accountability. You can talk about it all you like, but you’re going to have to talk to the tiny minority of people who frequent conspiracy websites and who can’t seem to get a grip on the fact that the rest of the world has moved on.
Perhaps you could make a difference getting involved in environmental projects, or working in an orphanage in Burma, or joining Animals Taiwan. Go work with victims of landmines in Cambodia. Any of these activities will have a greater impact on the world then beating the drum you’re beating now. 
It frustrates me to read the “round numbers” of deaths e.g. 100,000 - who produces that figure? It doesn’t really mean much in terms of human life.
Remember, Josef Stalin said one death is a tragedy, 1,000,000 is a statistic
Perhaps starting to make the actual soldiers doing the killing responsible would be the way to go. Mount a video camera on each gun. If they shoot someone who’s pointing a weapon at them, it’s permitted. Anything else, it’s murder and they should be charged accordingly. It may reduce civilian deaths, or at the very least, cause soldiers to think twice before killing others as each death can be analysed. Make the footage public immediately so there can be no editing, perhaps even stream it to a review board or direct to the net.
I think the issue with civilian deaths etc relates not so much to US forces but to Iraqi forces under US control (at least that’s what I read). It’s a lot of people though perhaps not exactly a blood bath. It’s two and a half US flu seasons or about as many as died from the sanctions that were in place after the first Iraq war. It’s a lot more than the number of US civilian’s that died in triggering the war if that kind of ledger is meaningful. I think it is. It’s a lot less than would die if the US lost oil security and had the oil turned off for 6 months. That’s the central issue. It has been ever since Saddam invaded Kuwait for stealing Iraqi oil. Well much earlier than that of course.
Streaming war onto the the net would only create a market for advertising beer called “Blood Thirst”.
[quote]It shows US forces often failed to intervene as the US-backed Iraqi government brutalised detainees, according to news organisations given access to the documents by the WikiLeaks website.
The nearly 400,000 records are described as offering a chilling, pointillist view of the war’s peak years, documenting thousands of civilian deaths - including hundreds killed at checkpoints manned by US soldiers - and the burgeoning role that US contractors came to play in the conflict.
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But the logs are perhaps most disturbing in their portrayal of the Iraqi government, which has taken control of security in the country as US forces withdraw.
According to an account in The Guardian, the British newspaper that was among several news organisations given advance access to the logs, their information reveals the deaths of at least six detainees in Iraqi custody because of abuse.
The logs cite hundreds of other cases in which prisoners were subjected to electric shock, sodomised, burned, whipped or beaten by Iraqi authorities.[/quote]
I agree with you, Fox. When the U.S. troops finish withdrawing from Iraq - not sure when that will be but you can bet it will be before the 2012 election, we’ll have to get used to stories about the way the Iraqi troops are dealing with taking charge. And while there will probably be less bloodshed than under Saddam, well, wait and see. 
[quote=“Chuanzao El Ale Destroyer”]I don’t disagree that “many people still believe those deaths were actually justified”, as you say.[/quote]That’s just a simple point. I agree most people consider 9/11 case closed. And I full well acknowledge the unfortunate reality that most people think questioning the closed case must somehow “believe in aliens, the hollow earth theory, and reptiles taken over the planet”. Debating emotions and wild accusations is still not interesting to me, nor to you obviously. Hopefully without sounding corny, I’d like to thank you for the way you’ve expressed your opinion.
You brought up other war tolls for comparison… but not Vietnam. Many still believe that one was justified to fight Communism, yet the legality hinged on a false flag which wasn’t disclosed to the public for 37 years, well after public attitude had calmed. In the case of our two current wars, there are possibly three camps of opinions on the subject. (A) Some adamant the case is accurate and honest, thus the wars are justified (maybe less in the case of Iraq). (B) Some adamant about examining the inaccuracy and dishonesty of the casus belli, and (C) Those who are detached from both, and you’re suggesting I accept this one as the correct reality. Okay, I accept most people are in the (C) group. My heart, my past commitments and sacrifices during service, and information processing on the topics unfortunately compel me to the (B) group, despite the accusations of associations.
[quote=“Chuanzao El Ale Destroyer”]There will be no war crimes trial for Bush, there will be no accountability.[/quote]History says you’re most likely dead on correct. But oh how dearly I hope you are wrong. I watched Elsberg on DemNow and he said without the Xerox machine in 1971, there was no way he could have leaked the papers that changed the course of history. Any chance we’re in a new era that lends itself to hope for the better?
[quote=“Chuanzao El Ale Destroyer”]Perhaps you could make a difference … [/quote]Interesting suggestions.