No, native born Taiwanese or Chinese cannot translate Chinese to English with the fluency and accuracy needed for most publications. All the professional translators on Fcom agree with that and your own experience here should also confirm the matter. Translation goes back to your native language, not from L1 to L2.
Whatever exceptions there are only prove the rule.
No, native born Taiwanese or Chinese cannot translate Chinese to English with the fluency and accuracy needed for most publications. All the professional translators on Fcom agree with that and your own experience here should also confirm the matter. Translation goes back to your native language, not from L1 to L2.
Whatever exceptions there are only prove the rule.[/quote]
There are some exceptional cases and circumstances, but yes, most translation professionals, theorists and educators agree that L2-to-L1 translation is the way to go.
Problem is, in Taiwan, like Lake Woebegone, everyone is exceptional. At least in their own Engrish-related minds. 
[quote=“urodacus”]Please, the fact that you’re bringing logic into an argument about Taiwan disqualifies you immediately.
Back to the back of the line, please.[/quote]
I LOL’d. Well done.
No, native born Taiwanese or Chinese cannot translate Chinese to English with the fluency and accuracy needed for most publications. All the professional translators on Fcom agree with that and your own experience here should also confirm the matter. Translation goes back to your native language, not from L1 to L2.
Whatever exceptions there are only prove the rule.[/quote]
All the professional translators on F.com? How many would that be? So how about those working in Academia Sinica and other government bodies? They don’t post on F.com. SO I guess by your reckoning then no non native Chinese speaker could tranlsate from English to Chinese as well. But that’s what tranlsators do isnt it? They need to be proficient or fluent in both languages being tranlasted not just one.
No, it IS NOT what professional translators do.
Pros work ONLY into their strongest language. That is not necessarily their mother tongue – for example, many people are born into a household speaking Taiwanese and acquire Mandarin early and are educated in Mandarin; for them Mandarin is their A language for translation and interpreting.
The easiest way to spot a wannabe translator: it’s the one who believes he really can translate into his B © language “well enough”.
Now, interpreting is a different story, since it is spoken and there is no lasting artifact. Speech is also a much more forgiving medium than the written word; there is more tolerance for errors. So interpreters do work bidirectionally (at least those of us who work with Asian languages, and everybody who does consecutive work). But European interpreters work only into their A languages, and usually have several B and/or C languages.
[quote=“ironlady”]No, it IS NOT what professional translators do.
Pros work ONLY into their strongest language. That is not necessarily their mother tongue – for example, many people are born into a household speaking Taiwanese and acquire Mandarin early and are educated in Mandarin; for them Mandarin is their A language for translation and interpreting.[/quote]
I thought the definition of “mother tongue” was a person’s strongest language.
[quote=“Chris”][quote=“ironlady”]No, it IS NOT what professional translators do.
Pros work ONLY into their strongest language. That is not necessarily their mother tongue – for example, many people are born into a household speaking Taiwanese and acquire Mandarin early and are educated in Mandarin; for them Mandarin is their A language for translation and interpreting.[/quote]
I thought the definition of “mother tongue” was a person’s strongest language.[/quote]
Not at all, it’s the “cradle language”.
Like my friends who were born here and moved to Canookistan when they were like 5 and didn’t know a word of Engreesh, but then STOPPED speaking Manadarin entirely and ended up not knowing a sniff of it and then coming back here after uni and have to study it from scratch.
Their “mother tongue” is Mandarin.
Even if they can’t currently speak a word.
Or like the Newfies back home who only spoke Gaelic before they went to school.
One of Fcom’s most esteemed posters (he can out himself though he’s never been secret about it so you should know) does almost all the high level translation for the government here, including speeches, policy papers, and so on. He’s been working at this position for 20 years.
Those agencies that don’t hire foreigners have websites that look like this:
I can name several. And they’re damn good translators, many of whom I, myself a translator, look up to with admiration.
The people at Academia Sinica are research fellows, not professional translators.
And government bodies? :roflmao: Have you seen the English written driving test they offer here? How about “Taiwan Touch Your Heart”? The people “translating” out of their native languages in government bodies are not professional translators. (The government does hire native English speakers to do some of its work, by the way. When you see something that reads like real English coming from the government, it’s because of native English speaking translators and/or editors.)
People translating into a language that is not their own, barring a few exceptional cases, produce results that are highly prone to error in grammar, usage, style, punctuation, idiom and more. When people do translate out of their native language, they should at the very least have a native speaker of the target language edit it.
Sat TV, you live in Taiwan, and I’m sure you’ve seen Chinglish floating around here. Chinglish is the result of L1-to-L2 translation.
Barring a few exceptional cases, yes.
On the rare occasion when I translate into Chinese (as I did for the FBI background check for my APRC), I do my utmost to produce what I think “sounds” like native Chinese. But I’d be an arrogant fool if I thought I could actually produce native-quality work: there’s generally something “off” about what I produce. When I do this, I make it a point to get at least two native speakers of Chinese to go over it mercilessly. I want the result to be transparent (i.e. reads as if it were originally penned by a native speaker of Chinese).
Yes, they need to be proficient or fluent in both languages. But one of those languages must be their L1 language. And it is that language that a professional translator translates into. If not, the result is generally Chinglish or Engnese.
But don’t just take my word for it. I may translate for a living, but when people like ironlady, omni and rotalsnart speak, I listen.
I can name several. And they’re damn good translators, many of whom I, myself a translator, look up to with admiration.
The people at Academia Sinica are research fellows, not professional translators.
And government bodies? :roflmao: Have you seen the English written driving test they offer here? How about “Taiwan Touch Your Heart”? The people “translating” out of their native languages in government bodies are not professional translators. (The government does hire native English speakers to do some of its work, by the way. When you see something that reads like real English coming from the government, it’s because of native English speaking translators and/or editors.)
People translating into a language that is not their own, barring a few exceptional cases, produce results that are highly prone to error in grammar, usage, style, punctuation, idiom and more. When people do translate out of their native language, they should at the very least have a native speaker of the target language edit it.
Sat TV, you live in Taiwan, and I’m sure you’ve seen Chinglish floating around here. Chinglish is the result of L1-to-L2 translation.
Barring a few exceptional cases, yes.
On the rare occasion when I translate into Chinese (as I did for the FBI background check for my APRC), I do my utmost to produce what I think “sounds” like native Chinese. But I’d be an arrogant fool if I thought I could actually produce native-quality work: there’s generally something “off” about what I produce. When I do this, I make it a point to get at least two native speakers of Chinese to go over it mercilessly. I want the result to be transparent (i.e. reads as if it were originally penned by a native speaker of Chinese).
Yes, they need to be proficient or fluent in both languages. But one of those languages must be their L1 language. And it is that language that a professional translator translates into. If not, the result is generally Chinglish or Engnese.
But don’t just take my word for it. I may translate for a living, but when people like ironlady, omni and rotalsnart speak, I listen.[/quote]
Nicely put, and 100% accurate. 
Tell me, is there a proper term (adj, one assumes) to describe the level of ability that goes beyond fluent?
Near-native, perhaps?
What is fluent? I was in a meeting with the CEO of a local broadcaster and his senior management for an IPTV project recently. One of the Expat staff meeting was a bit shocked at how much he did not understand about the technology being spoken about re IPTV broadcasting. And this is in English. I could speak with the CEO in Chinese and explain everything but the Expat staff don’t speak Chinese. The local staff I just explained everything in Chinese as that’s much quicker than using English.
The only thing that suprised them was I could actually explain it all in Chinese to them, and yet some could not understand everything being discussed as they are unfamiliar with the technical terms being used, as well as the technology. The CEO’s personal assistant I can understand not understanding all the technical terms being discussed.
Yet outside of my own business expertize I am not fluent in the language. Proficient, yes… maybe.
Pretty much anybody with several hundred words can be a translator of simple documents like police checks and household registration and academic transcripts. I used to do this my own immigration business as translating documents was part of my business.
Translation and interpretation are different things.
Translation is written and unidirectional: source text is converted into an equivalent version in the target text, which aims to convey the meaning of the source text as closely as possible (fidelity) in wording that is as natural as possible in the target language (transparency), tailored to the intended purpose and audience.
Interpretation is bidirectional and oral, and is usually, as ironlady says, much more forgiving. For example, if one person says “I don’t understand”, further clarifications can be made on the spot. Plus, the interpreter’s speech can be less than perfect grammatically or idiomatically, but still be perfectly well understood. Interpretation requires a different skillset from translation (though some skills overlap).
In other words, if an interpreter says “This company have no any debt”, you’ll understand exactly what he or she means, and little harm is done. But if the same is printed on a billboard ad for the company, the result can have negative consequences to the company’s professional image.
People who are fine translators can be terrible interpreters, and vice versa.
One of Fcom’s most esteemed posters (he can out himself though he’s never been secret about it so you should know) does almost all the high level translation for the government here, including speeches, policy papers, and so on. He’s been working at this position for 20 years. [/quote]
Yes, we have met. I also know local Taiwanese working for the Australian government in Canberra doing exactly the same thing, but in English. Actually the wife was originally from Thailand and the husband from Taiwan and they both met at Brown university, before working at Acedemia Sinica. They were some of my skilled immigration clients that immigrated to Australia. They both had 8.5 and 9.0 levels on the IELTS test as part of their immigration, on all 4 sections. Thats more than most “native” speakers can get.
Now the people who have the skills to do this transend any normal translator and are very rare indeed. But to say that only an English Native speaker could translate both Chinese and English to a fluent level is simply not true. Just because the level of most translators in Taiwan is not at native level does not mean that the people who can do that are not around. They tend to have very high skills and dont work doing just translations only.
Translators in this country are a dime a dozen and can be found everywhere.
Two different occupations. If you read what I wrote I never mentioned translating at the meeting, only translating documents for my immigration business before.
NAATI Chris, look it up.
Yet this thread is about translation. You’re the one who brought up interpretation.
Yet this thread is about translation. You’re the one who brought up interpretation.[/quote]
Well Chris, some people can actually do both quite well. I was replying to the issue of what is fluency in the language, not only the written part. 
Sorry about that.
The OP might want to see why his skills are nowhere near good enough to work as a translator.
He can barely use more than one form of swear word, and that’s less than the level of any 1st grader.
Indeed, some can. I don’t dispute this.
Indeed, some can. I don’t dispute this.[/quote]
20 years involved in the biz, I’ve met no more than a TINY handful. So few that they’re hardly worth including in the equation.