I am Taiwanese and I have now followed this thread and some others where you ask similar questions. Why would you like the proof? It feels like you want to show that the people in the government are stupid. I think Asiababy gave a good reason as to why they prefer to not have English education in kindergarten. Some of the comments (not you or in this thread) are really hurtful if you consider that for some of us, this is where we were born and this is our country with it’s own problems and faults.[/quote]
「Why would you like the proof?」你這個問題我覺得好恐怖。你真的那麼相信政府的話啊？[/quote]
Oh, yes. If you question the government, you are a terrorist . The government has made a decision. Governments cannot act with impunity. They need to have accountability for their actions. The government should have let the people know they are going to do this before they did it, so people would have a chance to voice their opinions.
[quote]That said, my ability to read Chinese is very limited.
That’s sad. Unfortunately we’re not in California where every instruction comes in both English and Spanish [/quote]
Yes, but we would also not have the day to day situations you are likely to get into over here. We wouldn’t have the cultural aspect.
You have been here how many years? Why do you always claim that it’s the politicians that make these decisions when it is not. It’s government policy advisors.
You have made your opinion heard as have many others in Taiwan who disagree with the policy. It would make no real difference to a person as to whether or not they start learning English at kindergarten or not as they can learn at elementary school upwards and still end up with the same levels in English.
Other than personal anecdotes, how do you know this for sure Sat? I might agree with you, but only to the point that the approach to bilingual instruction in Taiwan is a major cause. Bilingual instruction itself isn’t.
You have been here how many years? Why do you always claim that it’s the politicians that make these decisions when it is not. It’s government policy advisors.
You have made your opinion heard as have many others in Taiwan who disagree with the policy. It would make no real difference to a person as to whether or not they start learning English at kindergarten or not as they can learn at elementary school upwards and still end up with the same levels in English.[/quote]
What I have heard is that students who start earlier will generally have better pronunciation.
Being in the US, I’ve heard recently from very highly placed people that putting an aspirin between a girl’s knees is an effective form of birth control. But I don’t think you can believe everything you hear.
People are stupid though, or at least irrational. Politicians are also, because they’re people. That’s my reason for disliking government. It’s not because I think “people” are inherently smart or rational. This mistaken belief, that people are rational, is libertarianism’s greatest blind spot.
Thanks to everyone who typed Chinese for me, but I joined this forum to practice my English. My teacher said it would be good for me.
As for people being smart enough to make their own decisions, try this link.
Note that the highest placed English speaking countries are the UK and NZ and that the top countries are Asian countries. I would hardly call people “smart” based on those facts.
As for some other facts, Genesee, in an article published in 1999, said that the problem with dual language education is that one language could be considered to have more prestige than the other and create inferiority in the speakers of the other language. I guess that’s why the no Chinese rules in some schools are so stupid. Maybe they don’t want English in kindergartens because the people teaching it creates the impression that Chinese language and culture is somehow inferior to that of English or at least the people in the government are trying to avoid that.
McCollum, also in 1999, found that some students abandon their native language in dual language or immersion programs in favor of English. Now while many might feel that this is not such a bad idea, you have to understand that we hold Chinese language and culture dear, and that we would like to keep our children “pure” when it comes to our culture. Maybe the problem is that as much as I don’t understand your culture, you don’t understand ours, but we would like to keep it.
I also don’t see how effective playing, and all the other things mentioned as important at that a young age, can be done effectively in an quasi-immersion environment.
And the big final reason why the mentioned study can not take place - Foreigners have not been kept out of kindergartens. Many are still teaching there. The policy makers have too much as stake as they either have children or grandchildren in those schools or they probably own them.(the schools not the children)
I would place money that both of those studies were of dual-language education programmes in the USA, based on some hand-wringing fears that children of Spanish speakers were going to lose their native language.
We are discussing children being introduced to English in Taiwan. Of course they aren’t going to somehow lose the ability to communicate in Chinese. Or Taiwanese, for that matter, should their parents choose to provide Taiwanese input at home. Children might abandon their native language if they are in a foreign country, but they are never going to do that in their native country. As for deciding that Taiwanese/Chinese culture is inferior - I’ve yet to experience that .
As an aside, your English is way too good to be paying for lessons. All you need to do now is read a lot and talk to native speakers when you get the chance.
So you quote a few articles from the US and then end up with the same old phrase ‘you just don’t understand our culture’.
We not trying to understand culture here, we are trying to understand the governments decision making process and if there is any evidence to back up their policies.
It seems the government is not clear on the reasons themselves.
Leave your knee jerk reactions outside and learn something instead of getting defensive like most Taiwanese when foreigners discuss things about Taiwan, you know there are a lot of teachers and education professionals on this forum right ?
The OP also has put forward a good question, where is the evidence that this policy is having a beneficial
effect and in what way? Where is the review process?
[quote=“headhonchoII”]So you quote a few articles from the US and then end up with the same old phrase ‘you just don’t understand our culture’.
We not trying to understand culture here, we are trying to understand the governments decision making process and if there is any evidence to back up their policies.
It seems the government is not clear on the reasons themselves.
Leave your knee jerk reactions outside and learn something instead of getting defensive like most Taiwanese when foreigners discuss things about Taiwan, you know there are a lot of teachers and education professionals on this forum right ?
The OP also has put forward a good question, where is the evidence that this policy is having a beneficial
effect and in what way? Where is the review process?[/quote]
The “you just don’t understand our culture” was a joke aimed at tigerman and some others who typed that to me in Chinese. Maybe you couldn’t read it. I wasn’t getting defensive. The studies are indeed from the US which is why I stated the last thing. Foreigners are still working in kindergartens. It wasn’t supposed to be supplying any factual information. It was a stab at my own government, but the way you responded was pretty offensive. I guess it’s just in your “culture” to always assume it’s wrong to get defensive about your own country.
The point is there isn’t going to be evidence of something that hasn’t happened.
As an aside, your English is way too good to be paying for lessons. All you need to do now is read a lot and talk to native speakers when you get the chance.[/quote]
You sound like my teacher but thanks.
Many things are still difficult for me. In my last class we did the “final battle from 8 mile”
The rap is a little fast for me to get sometimes, but it was a fun class. I also learned a little about the ‘rap culture’, not that I will ever become a rapper. I like rock too much!
No I’m really bored of Taiwanese coming on here and getting defensive, shouting and leaving again.
I think I understand now that you are talking about the Taiwanese government thought process that was behind making this decision, not your own feelings. Thats fair.
Also I can read and write Chinese too, but I found it amusing that you focus on your own language learning instead of having fun with the people who wrote Chinese to you. I want to practice my English , ok. Can foreigners not practice Chinese too?
[quote=“E04teacherlin”]
The point is there isn’t going to be evidence of something that hasn’t happened.[/quote]
This is a fair point, but we know what the OP means.
Almost all the studies will be from the USA and Canada, so I wasn’t being very fair with my bet . The main point is that the majority of studies show that there is no long term damage to the L1 when children experience second language in schools from a young age. In the short term they are behind on L1 written skills, but they soon catch up. The methods used for instruction can cause problems - and this is where I have a big issue with Taiwanese bilingual kindys that seem to be attempting some form of structured immersion rather than bilingual education. The other problem is that the majority of the research is found to be methodologically flawed - but that’s applied linguistics for you .
It’s in our culture to be direct. Dancing around a subject so as to not give a straight answer or to “save someone face” is more offensive when dealing with foreigners. So when a foreigner says something that seems offensive, it’s just that they are directly stating how they feel, without sugar coating it like everyone else does.
Edit to add: your comment about keeping the chinese culture pure… hmm that explains the background feeling like I’m not wanted when I am in Taiwan
It’s also a bit embarrassing when a non-native speaker comes to this site to improve his or her English and then sees plenty of examples of really bad English by native speakers (I’m not referring to tomthorne here).
I remember reading a similar criticism of immersion programmes (I believe it looked at French immersion programmes in Anglophone parts of Canada). Basically, once students get out into the playground, they will revert to their native language (English in that case) because their immersion programme may teach them how to study in their non-native language, but it doesn’t deal with everyday language, and so it lacks usefulness as a communicative tool. As such, the success is limited.
What I noticed, when I taught groups of students who had been to bilingual kindergartens, was that they had developed a kind of pidgin version of English for communicating with each other and their teacher, presumably because they had been told not to speak Chinese to each other, even during play time, and because there was forced output when talking to a teacher. It was then extremely difficult for me to break those fossilised linguistic habits.
What I would be interested in seeing would be a study of people who had spent considerable time in various learning environments (including bilingual kindergarten) and seeing what percentage of them could actually speak English really well. My own theory is that even bilingual kindergartens simply lack enough (correct) English input on a student-by-student basis. There will always be people who learn a language well, but I suspect that it’s very, very difficult to ever get the majority of people close to fluency when not in an environment that provides real immersion (i.e. including outside of the classroom).
Why not, someone else posted that E04teacherlin just doesn’t understand western culture. WTF that has that to do with learning English at Kindy in Taiwan?
[quote=“headhonchoII”]Leave your knee jerk reactions outside and learn something instead of getting defensive like most Taiwanese when foreigners discuss things about Taiwan, you know there are a lot of [color=#0000FF]UNQUALIFIED[/color] teachers and education professionals on this forum right ?
The OP also has put forward a good question, where is the evidence that this policy is having a beneficial effect and in what way? Where is the review process?[/quote]
Here fixed that for you. My wife has a degree in Education with one year for Linguistics and TEFL with 1 year teaching practice part of the degree? I’d say she is more qualified than pretty much any of the antive speakers I have met teaching English here.
Nothing wrong with the OP’s question, but it’s been answered many times and get’s asked again and again. IF the OP is so determined to get an answer maybe he could write to the MOE. Maybe some of their policy decision makers can answer him. He can then question their educational qualifications and background as well if he wants. Who said there has been no review process. There has been and the decision was not to allow teaching English at kindergartens. Policies get reviewed all the time but that doesnt mean that they will be changed.
I posted the phrase originally. But, it had nothing to do with learning a different language. It was in response to the complaint that we foreigners were insulting Taiwanese by having the nerve to question the Taiwan Government.
. The government has made a decision. Governments cannot act with impunity. They need to have accountability for their actions. The government should have let the people know they are going to do this before they did it, so people would have a chance to voice their opinions.
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