And only 99.99% likely to be correct.
Still doesn’t make it non racist.
There’s a higher chance that people of color in England aren’t English than white people.
Like seeing a Moor in Elizabethan England, and thinking he is a foreigner.
It’s absolute nonsense to say that it’s racist to assume a non-Asian person in Taiwan is a foreigner when only a tiny percentage of non-Asian people in Taiwan are citizens. There is a larger number of people who don’t speak English in the US. I suppose I’m racist (or ethnocentric) if I’m in the US and I begin speaking English to someone without first asking, “Do you speak English?” That would also mean that anytime you’ve spoken to an Asian-appearing person in Taiwan in Chinese that you’re being racist for assuming they speak Chinese based on their appearance.
If you make the definition of racism too broad, it no longer has any meaning, which is a disservice to everyone who has experienced actual racism.
It’s not even political correctness. It’s not a political issue here.
Spot on!
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An interesting choice of timeframe as that was arguably when nationalism developed in England.
Still doesn’t make it not racist, though.
This is a fascinating discussion in so much as I don’t think we’ll ever get each other. You’re presumably, and quite rightly, anti-racism but you appear content to accept racism if the numbers are small enough. I can’t agree with this.
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there are about 33000 foreign residents from the west. Assuming 60% of them are western looking and foreigners from other places are not western looking. About 20000 western looking foreigners.
In the past 10 or 20 years, about 100 people from US, Germany, Italy, and Australia naturalized. Assuming 60% of them are western looking. Some of them might passed away, but ignore it.
So, 60 western looking ROC passport holders.
There are about 15000 non east or south east Asian foreign spouses. Assuming one third of them are western looking, and they are included in the above foreign residents. Assuming 75% of them have a kid each, and one third of those kids are western looking. About 1000 western looking ROC passport holders.
There must be some western looking Taiwanese on TARC, but I’m too lazy now to check the numbers. They may be about 2000 and 5% of them could be western looking?
So, the percentage of western looking ROC passport holders over western looking residents is about 5%, if including kids, and 0.8% excluding kids?
So if someone has ever walked up to an Asian-looking person and asked for directions in Chinese, are they racist? Because there are a whole lot more non-Chinese-speaking Asians here than non-Asian Taiwanese. So if anyone here has assumed someone is Taiwanese and/or speaks Chinese because they look Asian, that would make them seem pretty hypocritical for complaining that someone is racist for assuming a non-Asian is not Taiwanese. And probably narcissistic, too.
Based on almost every other country with generations of immigrants, it’s likely to get a lot worse.
I’m with you. Foreigners are foreigners (and waiguoren), even if they are residents. Foreigners never look so foreign but when they try to bring this western pseudo-political theory and apply it to themselves in Taiwan.
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Exactly.
Just like when I walked into First bank to open a securities account and the securities guy said to me , presumably because he was either lazy or didn’t know better that, that …And I quote ‘Waiguoren Bu Xing’.
He got at least five things offensively wrong there.
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He didn’t know I was a Waiguoren as he never asked me . He just assumed I was.
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I HAVE been a Taiwan ROC national previously and I have a passport to prove this.
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Foreigners CAN open securities accounts…I had one for years already (which he started doing for me 15 mins later…And finished 2.5 hours later
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He didn’t ask me anything about myself, if I was a customer in the bank, did I have a securities account before , what I wanted to do exactly , nothing. Just launched into ‘Foreigners Bu Xing’. He was 100% focused on my ‘foreigness’.
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I’m a customer. Customers need to be treated with some fucnijg courtesy no matter the situation .
You see not encountering minorities or people who look a certain way or a situation often , or somebody not having experience, is no excuse for ignorant and unprofessional behaviour. It’s no excuse for discrimination . Personally I blame their shitty management and training for this.
They are now doing this to me again for their new credit card. Fun and games.
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It’s racist because it’s discriminating against people of a different ethnic background or colour.
That is literally the definition of racism.
What is so hard for you to comprehend about this?
See my example above ! It has consequences.
prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.
Foreigners are a small minority in Taiwan and a lot of people like to go with the flow here say it’s not really racist, laowai，adogah , heiren, Wailao, ‘nimen doushi’, because it’s not a kick the shit out of you racism, it’s more subtle and yet very persistent and common in society here . It is racism and it has consequences .It’s not even about benefiting or not it’s about being inclusive and fair or not. A level playing field. A fair chance.
Racism is always going to be there but it doesn’t mean we have to accept ‘the way things are’.
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This is an illogical argument. Mandarin in the lingua franca in Taiwan. I speak to everyone, no matter their appearance, in Mandarin first.
Your example would only work if the context had another primary language or languages (heterogeneous societies). As you state, addressing an Asian looking person (in a non-Asian majority country) using Mandarin first would be an example of prejudice. In a way your example, if applied to non-Asian looking people in Taiwan, contradicts your fundamental claim.
And this 
is one of the most insulting things I’ve read in this thread.
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Well, you’re dedicated to your theories, I respect you for that. I think my logic holds, though. Walking up to an non-Asian looking person and speaking Chinese seems illogical by the numbers, and incredibly impractical. The lingua franca is a non-issue in my opinion, but it’s a nice retort.
Wow. That’s saying a lot. I’m honestly sorry that you were insulted; it certainly wasn’t personal. I’m not sure if you mean the first or second sentence, but I stick with the first as a matter of definition. The second is my opinion based on what I believe to be an altered form of a western political theory that is being badly misapplied. Expecting Taiwanese to not assume a non-Asian person is a non-Taiwanese person is going too far. I do think it is indicative of narcissism. A line has to be drawn somewhere, and that expectation is far past it. I came here when the year was a palindrome and all I expect is to be treated fairly according to a fair law, and I accept the law whether it inconveniences me or not because I’ve chosen to live here. But I do think it is a very foreign attitude to come here with (or develop) that attitude.
At some point I think we need to look at ourselves and ask if we think too highly of ourselves.
I’m sure I pissed off a lot of people, but I love Taiwan and much of this thread seemed like a lot of petty grumbling by privileged people who feel justified because they get to call it racism. To me, that’s a discredit to the problem, which is serious here and abroad. I appreciate and empathize with what was said by those with kids. That part scans.
@Southernboy your accuser must be on Forumosa, or a similarly minded FB group.
He didn’t, by chance, have scars from the removal of a tattoo of the characters for Taiwan, did he? I know he has wanted to come back Someone who was prison with him said he got mad that no one would call him Taiwanese. That was the first I knew of anyone who expected such a thing.
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I agree.
I am, personally, also fairly thick-skinned. However, as I tell my students, if Taiwanese visit other countries they will seldom, if ever, assumed to be a foreigner. Even if they identify as such, they will (personal experience) not be treated much differently from locals (born in that country).
Granted, Taiwan is not very heterogeneous compared to many nations, but is increasingly so. As such, discriminatory language by the younger generations is no longer acceptable. They should know better. People are people; what difference does it make where you were born or your DNA? That’s the root of discrimination, sexism, racism, etc.
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Maybe phrased in a more careful way, it’s not unreasonable to say Westerner foreigners import a framework of thought and interpret Asia through Western/Eurocentric political metrics/norms.
Not true necessarily. That would depend on where they go obviously. If it’s a country with a homgenous population unaccustomed to seeing foreigners they will. If they visit a country with a diverse population it’s unlikely.
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Yeah, that sounds better. I think what he said, plus that makes them sound especially foreign and especially specific to this issue.
It certainly gives people a different way of seeing themselves and others. We have the right to be treated fairly. I don’t think we have the right to be approached with absolutely no assumptions.
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Luckily I’ve never experienced any racism in Taiwan, just some predjudices that you get lumped in with as a european “westerner”.
I think the most ridiculous thing I’ve seen here is a large minority of my aquintances will turn their nose up at eating Indian or SEA food for “hygiene” reasons, yet have no issue buying fromrandom street vendors at a night market that handle change and food with the same unwashed hands. I really struggle to understand the superiority complex some here have around anything SEA related and complete love for anything Korean/Japanese.
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OK, but coming back to the incident where the western-looking person was mistakenly assumed to be a foreigner although he has a Taiwan passport. I don’t see any severe consequences here in this particular case besides maybe upsetting the person for a moment. If it happens to me, I wouldn’t take it as racism. To be honest it already happened to me in Germany several times.
When people asked me in Germany, if I eat rice everyday or if I can do Kung-fu or any other ridiculous question, I just answered the question and that was it. I simply thought those people are ignorant, stupid or uneducated, but I did not consider it racism.
What I want to say is that the definition of racism is pretty clear, but what cases are considered racist behavior is not always cristal clear, because it is not just black and white. People have different perceptions what falls under that definition. Take sports for example, any team sport basically has clearly defined what a foul is. But we still see people discussing about if this or that was really a foul or not. I think the same goes for racism.
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Irrelevant , it is what it is. Its not for you to judge how much if affects them. You don’t know.
And putting people into the 'foreigner box ’ usually has consequences, whether big or small.
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You might brush it off now, but I can imagine if a teacher started doing this in front of the class, or a manager in front of your coworkers , you might change your tune.
You can choose to accept petty racism or not as part of living in society , that’s your choice , but it doesn’t change what it is. Hence many can accept laowai, adogah , heiren, wailao references but it doesn’t change what is happening .
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Part of why I just didn’t take that stuff seriously in TW is because I don’t think it’s maliciously intended, and people are always calling each other by one another’s station in life. They do it to each other as well. “Hey, older aunt!”. “Hey, shuai ge”. “Hey third cousin on parents side”. People in families don’t even use names most of the time. My wife’s cousin is lil’ fatty. She will always be that. So if they ‘lao wai’ you know it’s just part of things.
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