Your experience with racism in Taiwan

[Widi]

@Brianjones

@Widi

When people asked me in Germany, if I eat rice everyday or if I can do Kung-fu or any other ridiculous question, I just answered the question and that was it. I u simply thought those people are ignorant, stupid oruneducated, but I did not consider it racism.

You might brush it off mow, but I can imagine if a teacher started doing this in front of the class, or a manager in front of your coworkers , you might change your tune.
You can choose to accept petty racism or not as part of living in society , that’s your choice , but it doesn’t change what it is. Hence many can accept laowai, adogah , heiren, wailao references but it doesn’t change what is happening .

So you are basically saying ignorance is racist behavior?
When an American seriously asks a German if you have fridges in Germany, is that racist or just dumb/ignorant/uneducated or all of that? Because he seems to believe Germany is such an undeveloped country or only people in the USA have fridges.

We obviously have a different perception what is considered as racism. I’m fine with that. I don’t care if someone with no bad intention asks out of plain curiosity if I eat rice every day. It may be a dumb stupid question, but I personally won’t say nor think that it is racist and I’m certain that I’m not the only person who thinks this way.

[Brianjones]

@Widi

out of plain curiosity if I eat rice every day. It may be a dumb stupid question, but I personally won’t say nor think that it is racist and I’m certain that I’m not the only person who thinks this way.

It doesn’t change what it is even though you think.its OK.
You won’t think it’s OK when you are in a bunch of Germans and the boss keeps bringing it up. Or the teacher in the class room.

I know well in Taiwan that lazy racism and discrimination have been well tolerated especially in the workplace . But I also see how references to ShanDiRen and Hei Mei.。Pang Mei have become way less here over time.

[dan2006]

@radiojams

really struggle to understand the superiority complex some here have around anything SEA related and complete love for anything Korean/Japanese

That’s why I often frequent Vietnamese food places here. Its cheap and tasty because the locals avoid it while they are gladly paying triple for a very Taiwanese version of Japanese or Korean food. Their loss is my gain

[Widi]

@Brianjones

@Widi

out of plain curiosity if I eat rice every day. It may be a dumb stupid question, but I personally won’t say nor think that it is racist and I’m certain that I’m not the only person who thinks this way.

It doesn’t change what is even though you think.its OK.
You won’t think it’s OK when you are in a bunch of Germans and the boss keeps bringing it up. Or the teacher in the class room.

Sorry, but who are you to judge what is OK for me or not?
And what’s does it have to do if questions are asked in front of many people? Those are different situations. I’m talking about a specific situation which I don’t perceive as racist.

All I am saying is that you can not just put everything in your racism box and say this has to be valid for everyone. As I said it is not just black and white for many people.

According to your definition all countries in the world would be racist. People of certain countries need a visa to enter foreign countries, then there are people from countries who are visa exempt. As all countries in the world do that, is every country racist or not?

[Brianjones]

Ah so now you are suddenly getting sensitive when asked about specific situations.

[tando]

@SunWuKong

@tando

but judging someones nationality by their appearance at public services like a hospital is racist.

So if someone has ever walked up to an Asian-looking person and asked for directions in Chinese, are they racist?

Judging all Han looking person are nationals at public services like a hospital is racist.

@SunWuKong

Walking up to an non-Asian looking person and speaking Chinese seems illogical by the numbers, and incredibly impractical.

why? There can be a good chance their Mandarin is better than my English. I’d ask first if they speak Mandarin.

@SunWuKong

A line has to be drawn somewhere

if my estimate was about right, 1% of western looking adult residents are nationals, and 5% including kids. That is too small percentage, then where is a practical line?

Is it not racist to assume all Filipino looking residents are blue collar workers?

@Widi

According to your definition all countries in the world would be racist. People of certain countries need a visa to enter foreign countries, then there are people from countries who are visa exempt. As all countries in the world do that, is every country racist or not?

it is discriminatory, but not racist. The distraction is not by race but by nationality.

[Southernboy]

Racism

• prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.

• the belief that different races possess distinct characteristics, abilities, or qualities, especially so as to distinguish them as inferior or superior to one another.

Rscism defined.

So how does saying “us foreigners” which includes myself fall into the above definition of racism? Is it discrimination to ask him to follow the same rules as everyone else here?

I’m not white, btw. I’m more towards brown/black. I’ve experienced mild racism in Taiwan in the form of racial slurs, twice. From a white American and later from a white UK citizen.

Mild? yes, it’s just jerks wanting to hurt, to twist that knife when they can later say that I’m lying, they never said that. Another Englishman casually stated that he didn’t consider me to be English because of my heritage.

Apparently being born in London and citizen of the UK doesn’t make me English.

Again, mild.

Real racism, ask my father. Late in life he had plastic surgery on his face to remove a scar given to him during a severe beating in London in the 1970s. He was walking in public with a white woman, my mother.

When a foreigner accuses me of being racist for including him as one of my own, a fellow outsider to Taiwan, nothing malicious was intended at all. Therefore it’s not racist. If I’m mistaken, he can politely correct me.

People of color have been doing this for decades - in the west.

As for me, you can’t begin to understand how upsetting it was to be called the same slur that my father probably heard as he got his beating.

In the 2010s, I never expected to hear that word in my life, let alone here in Taiwan from a fellow foreigner. But, it’s mild. It’s not stopping or impeding me. Just bruised feelings.

My feeling is that the people shouting loudest here calling me a racist have probably never experienced real racism or discrimination in their lives.

(7.15 in the am, I need a coffee.)

[Poundsand]

@Brianjones

You won’t think it’s OK when you are in a bunch of Germans and the boss keeps bringing it up.

That’s not analogous at all - someone asking out of curiosity and ignorance is one thing, but if a boss keeps bringing something up, they’re fucking with you, not displaying curiosity.

@Brianjones

It’s racist because it’s discriminating against people of a different ethnic background or colour.
That is literally the definition of racism.

You got the bolded part covered, but what’s missing for it being racism is the discrimination part. Him assuming that someone in his complex is a foreigner doesn’t show seem to show that he’s discriminating against the other guy.

[tando]

Racism is

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.

Prejudice is

preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience

Our difference here is whether it is reasonable to assume e every individual of a group has some other character, when most of people belonging to the grpoup are sharing the other character. And where is the line.

@Southernboy

the people shouting loudest here calling me a racist

are there anyone calling you racist here?

@Southernboy

probably never experienced real racism or discrimination in their lives.

whether it is violent or not, severe or mild, racism is racism, and discrimination is discrimination.

[Taiwan_for_Life]

I agree with Southernboy. I think people who have suffered violent physical abuse, been spat at, chased by thugs or maybe even told to go home would consider many of what is being mentioned here as inconveniences based on otherness. If people insist on calling it racism then that’s ok too, but for me, it’s at one end of a very long spectrum.

[tando]

@Taiwan_for_Life

many of what is being mentioned here as inconveniences based on otherness.

foreigners can’t do this or that are not racism, imo, but I consider judged and treated as a foreigner by appearance without confirmation as racism.

[Southernboy]

@tando

are there anyone calling you racist here?

You are. You have judged my actions to be racist. That makes me a racist based on your definition of racism.

People that act in racist ways are racist. Like the law, ignorance is not a defense.

[tando]

@Southernboy

@tando

are there anyone calling you racist here?

You are. You have judged my actions to be racist. That makes me a racist based on your definition of racism.

People that act in racist ways are racist. Like the law, ignorance is not a defense.

for me, calling some acts are racist and calling persons who did the acts are racist are different things.

Other than the incident you posted here, I seldom know your thoughts on race and people of different races.

[Southernboy]

@tando

for me, calling some acts are racist and calling persons who did the acts are racist are different things.

@tando

whether it is violent or not, severe or mild, racism is racism, and discrimination is discrimination.

So the action is racist but the person doing it isn’t a racist.

Based on that logic, getting beaten on the streets for being with a white woman was racist, but the people doing it weren’t racist.

Being called a racial slur to my face is racist, but the person doing it isn’t a racist.

Ok, let’s agree to disagree on this one.

[Taiwan_for_Life]

Not all the time. I think Tando would agree that those people were racists, but it is possible for someone not to be a racist but say or act in a racist way in certain situations, perhaps doing so unconsciously.

[tando]

@Southernboy

So the action is racist but the person doing it isn’t a racist.

Ya, I’d say your act is racist, but my guess is you were most probably just ignorant, unless you are doing more severe racist acts in your life, which are things I don’t know.

@Southernboy

getting beaten on the streets for being with a white woman was racist, but the people doing it weren’t racist.

Being called a racial slur to my face is racist, but the person doing it isn’t a racist.

imo, those acts indicate clearly that the persons who did them are racist.

[Southernboy]

So racist slurs and beatings are racist. Also, calling someone to be in the same group as myself is also racist.

You’ve yet to argue your point. You keep giving your conclusion, but aren’t backing it up.

@tando

whether it is violent or not, severe or mild, racism is racism, and discrimination is discrimination.

“Us foreigners” please explain how it fits in with your definition of racism. In particular the “prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism” part.

[tando]

What I’m saying racist is you judged the westerner is a foreigner without confirmation.

Though most of westerners are foreigners, not all of westerners are foreigners. So, judging a person is is a foreigner based on the person’s western characters without confirmation is prejudice, and if the western character used to make the judge was racial, it is racist.

[Southernboy]

@Southernboy

“prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism

this is racism defined. you posted it yourself. How does it fit in with your own definition?

what was prejudicial?
what was discriminatory?
what was antagonistic?

if you can’t give an answer to one of those, then I’d say you can’t call it racist

[tando]

@Southernboy

this is racism defined. you posted it yourself. How does it fit in with your own definition?

I was editing my previous post when you posted this.

@tando

Prejudice is

preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience

Our difference here is whether it is reasonable to assume e every individual of a group has some other character, when most of people belonging to the grpoup are sharing the other character. And where is the line.