I’m looking at buying a second hand car.
Will be used mainly on weekends and holidays for camping, surfing, hiking missions.
My budget is around the 70 to 80 thousand mark.
I’ve narrowed my choices down to either a Toyota Zace Surf or a Mitubishi Freeca.
The Toyota seems to be a bit more expensive for the same year model.
Anyone have any experience with these two little no’s?
Talking about fuel consumption, reliability, cost of services and spares etc.
Cheers Neil
[quote=“neilnavyseal”]I’m looking at buying a second hand car.
Will be used mainly on weekends and holidays for camping, surfing, hiking missions.
My budget is around the 70 to 80 thousand mark.
I’ve narrowed my choices down to either a Toyota Zace Surf or a Mitubishi Freeca.
The Toyota seems to be a bit more expensive for the same year model.
Anyone have any experience with these two little no’s?
Talking about fuel consumption, reliability, cost of services and spares etc.
Cheers Neil[/quote]
They are both gutless pigs, both are complete gas guzzlers, handle poorly and are about as aerodynamic as a cardboard box. Both run like high strung sewing machines on the freeway.
Avoid either model before 1998. Try like hell to find either with a manual transmission. Toyota has miles better build quality.
We have a Freeca at our factory with a little sewing machine 2.0liter and the mileage on the freeway is exactly the same as my 4.7liter V8.
Why not look at a VW transporter instead. Used they are roughly the same price.
Perhaps also consider a Delica, if you havn’t already. There’s a 4X4 targetted at that sort of usage, though its turbo diesel engine is said to be a bit weak.
IIRC the most detailed account of early used Zace ownership is in the Little Yellow Truck thread (do a search, I got a class in 5 minutes). Also IIRC, poster Dogsbreakfast has both and much prefers his Zace, especially for reliability.
For my budget I cam get around 1999 to 2002 Zace Surf or around2002 to 2004 Freeca.
My last car was VW and I found spares to be crazy expensive and mechanics who can work on VW’s are hard to come by.
I really like the Delica’s, just assumed they would be a lot heavier on fuel?
Thanks for all the advice! I’ll definitely check out those other threads and look into Delicas a bit more.
[quote=“neilnavyseal”]My last car was VW and I found spares to be crazy expensive and mechanics who can work on VW’s are hard to come by.
[/quote]
IIRC Mr S, who knows about these things, reckons the VW van is an exception to his general “Krauts make krap” thumbrule, probably because, as a commercial, its simpler and its been in the Taiwan market for a long time so the support for it has developed.
Dunno, no experience with them, but the 4X4 is a diesel, which might help, and the aerodynamics probably aren’t much worse.
The 4X4 drivetrain won’t help fuel economy, though, so if you don’t need it you might be better off wth the base van. The petrol engine (not officially available for the 4X4) is said to be much stronger.
An advantage of the VW Transporter and the Delica is that there is quite a lot of information available for them in English.
As I said above, I don’t have any ownership experience with the Delica, but I had an abortive attempt to buy one a few years ago, described here:-
forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopi … uck+Delica
so I checked it out a bit then.
There are active user groups (mostly for the 4X4 versions) based in the UK, Australia and Canada, and workshop manuals are available both as downloadable pdf’s, and for purchase. By contrast, there’s very little available for the Zace, and AFAIK, nothing for the Freeca or (if you wanted to go smaller) Varica. This might be less relevant for you if you don’t intend to do any of your own maintenance.
Fuel consumption is discussed, with data, on these forums and is of especial concern in the UK, where fuel prices are very high and this is a relatively big and thirsty vehicle. Probably less scary for an American.
For the same reason, there’s a lot of interest and experience in the UK with running on waste/straight vegetable oil. This is less of a saving in Taiwan, and, while the risks might be acceptable for a normally aspirated diesel I’d say they are too high for the turbo that (AFAIK) is the only “official” engine in the 4X4 here.
The only experience I had with a Toyota Surf was pulling one off the beach at Yongan.
It never reached the “surf” at all. It had traversed only about 2 or 3 meters of sand before getting bogged up to the axles.
Don’t count on it being a functional 4WD vehicle.
[quote=“monkey”]The only experience I had with a Toyota Surf was pulling one off the beach at Yong’an.
It never reached the “surf” at all. It had traversed only about 2 or 3 meters of sand before getting bogged up to the axles.
Don’t count on it being a functional 4WD vehicle.[/quote]
Proves nothing. ANY vehicle (apart from perhaps a hovercraft) can get stuck in beach sand.
While I was doing EOD work we lost a tank and JCB to beach sand (and a rising tide).
Shit, I even got my girlfriends Toyota Avensis stuck thus, though I got it out again, using the power of beach bamboo (phew!).
Incidentally I didn’t know there was a 4WD Zace available here. Can’t have been paying attention.
Think the Toyota Zace Surfs with 1.8L engines were 2WD and the ones with 2.4 were 4WD. There are a lot of 4WD versions around in Taiwan.
I have driven one and it feels OK going in a straight line. Wouldn’t be much fun on country roads owing to its height and narrow wheelbase.
You guys have given me plenty food for thought, looks like I need to do some homework.
So far I’m thinking the Freeca is completely out.
Still considering a Zace Surf 1.8 2wd, Zace Surf 2.4 4wd, Delica 4wd and a Delica 2wd (wonder how the Ford Van measures up, similar to the Delica 2wd).
I’ll do some research and report back with some facts and figures.
Tanks for all the input, it’s really been helpful.
[quote=“neilnavyseal”]
(wonder how the Ford Van measures up, similar to the Delica 2wd).
.[/quote]
From forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtop … 75&t=73776
(which would be worth a read) Note that they are talking about vans here, not 4X4’s
The Delica vans, lacking the bulkhead behind the driver’s seat, have more adjustment range and are more comfortable. Worth sitting in one to see. It’s not as nice a drive as the T4 but as Ducked points out, they are super reliable and dirt cheap to fix / maintain. 
Junk. Horrid, junk. Handles like a overloaded city bus with 4 flat tires, has less power than a scooter, poor brakes and needs to be Fixed Or Repaired Daily.[/quote]
This is also known as the Mazda Bongo, and I THINK has another Mazda name/model number that I can’t remember.
[quote=“neilnavyseal”]So far I’m thinking the Freeca is completely out.
[/quote]
Bit late, but this “Freeca vs Zace Surf” thread might reinforce that decision, if you havn’t already seen it.
[quote=“Ducked”]this “Freeca vs Zace Surf” thread might reinforce that decision, if you havn’t already seen it.
[/quote]
That’s the thread that lead me to the decision! Say no to Freeca’s!!
I spoke to a neighbor who owns a Delica 4X4. He goes SCUBA Diving with groups up and down the East coast. He loves his Delica, this is his second Delica. He said if anything happens to this one his next vehicle will be a Delica. He reckons it is virtually indestructible, he has never had any trouble, it’s simple and cheap to maintain and as long as you get a manual, you can keep the fuel consumption down a bit. I tried to get an actual figure on his fuel consumption, but it’s like drawing water from a stone (maybe it’s just my bad Chinese). Or Maybe if you own a Delica it’s best not to know the truth.
I’ve also checked the Tax brackets ( 8891.com.tw/help-taxes.html ). For a 1201cc to 1800cc it’s NT$11920 a year. For 1801cc to 2400 cc it’s NT$17440 a year. For 2401cc to 3000cc it’s NT$22410 a year.
So for between NT$80 000 to NT$100 000, could get up to a 1998 Delica 4x4 or up to a 2002 Zace Surf 1800cc. Looks like the Zace Surf 4x4 is a bit out of the price range, but maybe just need more time to look as they are kind of scarce.
5 years age difference? Like a thorn in my mind, along with wondering about fuel consumption. All things considered, looks like both the Delica 4x4 and the Zace Surf 1800 are reliable and cheap to maintain. Both are under powered and heavy on fuel. I’m guessing the Delica is bit heavier, but diesel is cheaper. So no cruising on the High Way at 120. Delica has 4X4, awesome for cruising down the beaches and more adventurous mountain exploring. … Time to go check those UK Delica forums for some more info.
The previous generation of Delicas are basically a Mitsubishi Pajero chassis and drivetrain with a “Scooby Doo wagon” body stuck on them. They are real offroad 4WD vehicles and are used by a lot of beach fishermen in Taiwan. I wouldn’t hesitate to get one either if my Rodeo crapped out on me.
I’ve never seen inside one though. They seem long enough to serve as an overnight camper if the back seats can fold flat or be removed.
A quick look at some UK and Canadian Delica forums show’s average fuel consumption between 12 to 18 Liters per 100 km’s depending on tires and roof racks etc.
There are some interesting tips on improving performance and fuel consumption.
Cheers. Off to class.
You’re not wrong. I saw this in Wikipedia.
“The four-wheel drive chassis was based on that of the contemporary Mitsubishi Pajero, although parts are seldom interchangeable.” I like it!
Maybe I should change this thread to the Delica 4X4 wanna be thread. Just found this on a Canadian site.
"A Mitsubishi Delica Star Wagon (aka L300, Exceed, Super Exceed) with a diesel engine, when properly tuned, should get:
-between 8.5-10 km per litre
-or use 10-12 litres per 100 km
I’ve posted these numbers after a careful analysis of the various posts on this forum (and others), and these numbers are consistent. Factors which negatively affect your fuel economy:
-the fact that it’s a more-than-15yrs-old, 2 tonne, 85hp, 2.5 litre turbo diesel-engined, 4WD van in the shape of a brick with wheels;
-how many people/how much stuff you’ve got loaded into it;
-a poorly tuned engine (proper maintenance will make all the difference);
-waiting too long to change the oil/filter and the air filter (especially the air filter, don’t let it get too dirty)
-under-inflated tires (if you’re not offroad, pump 'em up);
-a roof rack with a lot of stuff in it (if you’re not using it, take it off - it will make a difference); and,
-how heavy your foot is!
I cannot emphasize the last point enough. Most North Americans drive more aggressively (only two-position right feet: not on the pedal or all-the-way-to-the-floor) than the intended market for these vans, which is why the vans seem ‘sluggish’ to a lot of new owners. If this was a North American vehicle, it would probably have a 5 or 7 litre engine in it, just to give it the get-up-and-go most of us are ‘used’ to. That being said, if driven correctly, these vans perform as built, and if well looked after should have little problem rolling past half-a-million kilometers."
Anyway this brings me to my second point, the Diesel engine is rated at 2,476l on Wikipedia and these other forums all talk about it being a 2,5l. What worries me is this pushes you into the next tax bracket (For 2401cc to 3000cc it’s NT$22410 a year). Any thoughts? How difficult is it to go the “paint your reg. no. on the back and register a company car for tax discount” route?
If you want a 4wd van, and tax is a concern, there are 4X4 versions of at least some of the various micro vans (Subaru Sambar, Daihatsu Hijet, and Ford Susuki/Pronto), the commonest probably being the Varicar. Expert opinion doesn’t rate them.
I’ve only driven the 2WD version of the Pronto (Bedford Rascal in the UK) for any length of time. It was a bit rough, and I imagine it’d be awkward to work on, though I never had to do that.
OTOH some owners (some of whom are surfers and take them to the beach) rave about them.
Okay. Here’s the basic lowdown on three of the models discussed.
Good:Very reliable, easy to find cheap spares, and easy to maintain, strong residual value, better handling than the Freeca.
Bad: Expensive to purchase compared to competitors.
Summary: An excellent choice for a person with a budget of around 250,000NT, who needs a vehicle to both transport as well as offer reasonable handling and a 4x4 option.
Good: Cheap to purchase, easy to maintain, cheap spares.
Bad: Less reliable than the Surf, less stable chassis than the Surf, poorer residuals.
Summary: An excellent choice for someone on the lowest budget (around 150,000NT) for a small/medium sized commercial style/van vehicle
Good: The cheapest, largest transporter on the used market, excellent suspension, high level of comfort. Way cheaper than it’s newer T5 replacement, quick release seats and a huge interior space.
Bad: Reasonably unreliable if not kept in the highest condition, weak brake force complaints by some, prone to high rate of wear and tear, some expensive components if you don’t know where to look, some engine and gearbox components very tricky to work on, way too big to drive around the city and in and out of underground car parks on a daily basis.
Summary: An excellent vehicle for a personal transportation vehicle, for weekend, or long road trips and fetching the odd wardrobe from the furniture store. Any owner will need patience and a wad of cash put aside for a repair here and there, as well as know where and how to get work done on occasion.
Personally if I myself were to choose any of the above, I’d go for the Surf for business, and the T4 for pleasure, but I wouldn’t be using the T4 as a daily driver. The T4 is by far the most enjoyable of the above to drive I would say, and it inspires one to dream of grand trips with large groups of friends. It’s a very lovable vehicle to own. It’s also going to break your puny bank account however with common repairs and frequent maintenance. Still…even counting the additional costs of ownership with the T4, if it’s a whopping great van you need which can swallow just about anything, then you aren’t going to get a better bank for the buck as a newer T5 is going to cost a million or two to begin looking.
I’d typically recommend that anyone considering a T4 to drive home from the local dealers these days is best prepared with another 100,000NT plus in spare cash for the subsequent repair bill after driving it to a good garage and having them go through it with a fine tooth comb to iron out the basic list of issues.
AFAIK no one has posted the cost/benefits for this. Expert opinion used to be that the saving on tax didn’t justify the expense of setting up a company.
MJB recently reported setting up company to register a truck, so this view may have changed, though in practice it seems to be the only way a foreigner can run a truck, and the truck was an especially huge Toyota Tundra so the tax savings would be more significant.
I’ve heard (second hand) that a professor here has her Freeca (which she won in a competition, so a free Freeca) registered as a business vehicle, though she doesn’t in fact run a “real” business. Apparently when pressed for details she clammed up, so I don’t have the full story, though since IIRC the Freeca is only 2L I imagine there’s a catch/special circumstance/guan-chi-thingy, otherwise everyone would be doing it.
If I get a chance I’ll ply her husband with beer and try and pry the story out of him.